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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Exercise & Fitness Thread Number 2: Advice and information for those following 5:2 / IF (Intermittent Fasting)

990 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2014 17:11

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

Increasing your % muscle and / or reducing your % body fat lowers the risk of death from all causes LowerRiskMuscle

Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and theyj can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve BendAge

Fasted training

i.e. training on FDs, seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF.
Most experienced exercisers soon manage fasted training without loss of performance for session of up to 90 mins.

Hormesis

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"
Hormesis Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis is cutting edge science for nutrition and fitness.

Its principles are that alternating between "extremes" of feast and fast (5:2 / IF) or intense training and rest (HIIT), makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain , Hormesis-Edge , and AntiFragile The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

INEFFICIENT: Low-Medium Intensity Steady state Cardio

Steady state cardio is NOT necessary for fitness and should only be a small part of your weekly cardio, unless it is all you can manage to do.

Walking outdoors is beneficial psychologically, is easy on the knee joints and has some physical benefits.

However, at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking Ref

Also low-moderate or steady state exercise tends to increase appetite, whereas intense exercise can suppress appetite for up to 15 hours.

BEST TYPES of Exercise

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

Anyone who is not specialising in a sport at a high level should aim to do both HIIT cardio and lifting / resistance training.

FAST Exercise

Dr Mosely developed a Fast Exercise program to complement his 5:2 WOE FastExercise

He lists many HIIT and strength routines that only take a few minutes, but can make significantly improve metabolism and fat-burning capability FastExercises

HOW to Exercise

The cardio machines and the girlie pink dumbbells that gyms push are NOT adequate to significantly improve fitness or burn fat.

Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:

  • Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
  • Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve.
  • You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !
However, a brisk 30 mins daily walk plus 5 mins hoop is better than nothing and if done regularly will bring some health benefits.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less-intense recovery periods.
Examples:

  • 20 seconds high intensity + 10 secs recovery
  • 60 sec high + 30 sec low etc.

HIIT is very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis).

Scientists have proved that HIIT burns more fat than steady state lower intensity exercise and speeds up the metabolism, which helps burn more calories for up to 48 hrs.

HIIT also improves the insulin metabolism, which is very important for health.

HIIT reduces risk of heart problems more than doing lower intensity SteadyState , pp. 31-34.

HIIT increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

HIIT can be applied to cardio: e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs or to bodyweight exercises, e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups

Most gyms offer HIIT classes, e.g. spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek*(Fartlek = HIIT with irregular intervals)

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

Helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.
You can lift at home, or in the gym weights area, or in a pump class.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of a particular lifting exercise
Sets are normally separated by brief rests E.g. you might do 3 sets each of 12 reps all of the same exercise.

WARNING
Do not lift massively heavy barbells, more than bodyweight, unless you are really fit with good technique.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Press ups

  • By far the best upper body exercise
  • Keep attempting one full pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor.
  • Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
  • Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms
  • Hand Release Pressups are good to build up strength for full ones
  • Also build up via inclined pressups InclinedPress , see bottom of wiki page
  • To increase the number of pushups IncreaseNum

ATG Arse To Grass bodyweight squat

  • The best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs.
  • Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat.
-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes. -bring your arms forward
  • keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical.
  • Go down as far as you can without knee pain.

Pullups

  • Very few women can do full ones, but assisted ones build excellent muscle
  • Work the same muscles with the much easier Australian pullup or imverted row InvertedRow

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups:
squats bent-over rows (press button "female") Behind neckPress (press button "female") dead lift

To increase Strength Rather than Muscle Mass
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts.

To Build More Muscle
Lift lower (NOT Girlie) weight, do 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts.

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight-bearing exercises that load the bone along its length of these types:

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag.

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc.

Squats are much better for osteoporosis than lunges, also for knees:
The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint.

Note: Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density, as it does not load bones along their length. Osteo

KETTLEBELLS Kettle
Beginners:
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

Improve your GRIP STRENGTH GripMen , BodyBuild

CALCULATORS:
Fast Fitness Calculators: 52FastExercise
Estimate your fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Body Fat Calculator:BF
Healthy Body Fat Percentages at Different Ages: HealthyBF
TDEE with detailed activity times: TDEE

OP posts:
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37
BigChocFrenzy · 29/09/2014 21:26

B&W The Slow-Strength hasn't had much research compared to traditional methods, but opinion is divided as to whether it is more effective or just more boring: MensHealth , UniFit

Results are NOT clear enough to abandon traditional methods, but if you want to incorporate Slow-Lifting, then don't exceed once per week - it should not be too often, e.g. WebMd
So, most of your exercise should stay traditional.

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/09/2014 21:30

B&W I would avoid Mercola. He has a reputation of being very dodgy and most serious scientists and fitness / diet specialists despise him.
He leaps onto every new idea, but doesn't discriminate enough between good research and unproven theories.

Do NOT change your lifestyle based on anything he says. There are far more reliable sites & sources.

OP posts:
Breadandwine · 30/09/2014 01:51

Thanks, BC - I appreciate your concern.

However, I was looking at slow weight training before I found the Dr Mercola page - after coming across this site:

www.sparkpeople.com/resource/fitness_articles.asp?id=253&page=2

The attraction as far as I'm concerned is that, doing just the one set, albeit very slowly, is quicker than doing a number of sets.

There are clearly something to be said for both slow and fast weight training - and a bit of variety in ones routine is to be welcomed.

Looking back I've come this far with traditional methods, so I won't change too much too quickly, and once a week sounds like a good plan.

Thanks again! Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 30/09/2014 11:54

One slow set in shorter time is probably not bringing you all the benefits of multiple sets - see conflicting studies in my refs.
I've seen discussions on Slow-Lifting the last year or so, but it still has insufficient research.

Also, people seem more prone to injury
That's probably due to Slow Lifting too often, or because it requires good technique.

I suggest it as an additional way of loading muscles, not a replacement for traditional methods - at least not without a lot more research.
A mix of loading types is usually good: slow / medium, 2-5 heavy weight reps / several mins lighter weight reps, ....

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TalkinPeace · 30/09/2014 15:56

Drags self into exercise thread, bored of wobbly bits around my waist.
Weight is OK but every ounce of spare is in a tyre around my hips and waist.

I cannot run and I cannot do weights on leg exercises
currently I do lots of swimming and power yoga
I really do not get on with things like spin

but need to find something that will make me really work up a sweat and burn away the spare tyre ....

BetsyBell · 30/09/2014 16:06

TiP IIRC you were a big fan of Body Pump? That would do it...

TalkinPeace · 30/09/2014 16:11

I do like pump, but the real 'sweat' track - squats - I'm limited on weight because my knees hurt so much

I've been doing quite a lot of bodyweight abs

  • pressups with hands on either side of a bosu, one foot crossed over the other
  • swiss ball side front and back crunches
  • extensions with a medicine ball balanced on my ankles
so the muscles behind the flab are pretty good - I just cannot see them!
BigChocFrenzy · 30/09/2014 19:08

As you know Tip, controlling intake is the main tool to zap those wobbly bits. Losing a couple kg fat would reveal your muscles again.
But a total pain in middle age, isn't it !

To help accelerate fat loss, have you access to any boxing or boxfit classes ?
They are excellent for fitness and fat-burning, without straining the knees.
Great fun too and I think you would enjoy a bit of aggression
Smile
TK, Karate, TaeBo all involve kicking, so probably not for nadgered knees.

Also, look at Kettle Bell exercises, e.g. see the videos in the OP. They combine strength with cardio to burn a lot of cals, again without knee strain.

Your knees rule out most other exercises I can think of. I presume a rowing machine would also be too much strain ?

OP posts:
TalkinPeace · 30/09/2014 20:14

Hiya,
I can do rowing machines : is a very localised injury - actual pressure on the knee (kneeling etc) ~ jumping (well the landing part of it) ~ anything that brings my weight back up (bar bells)

yup I might have a play with a kettle bell
and I guess the main thing I need to have less of the Wine calories Wink

BetsyBell · 30/09/2014 21:35

I was going to say that reducing the Wine would probably do it Tip, but I thought I might sound like a stuck record Wink - although you have been saying for a while you've been meaning to cut down... Grin

BetsyBell · 03/10/2014 09:42

Yay, thanks to the DCs doing an early sport club at school I got an earlybird Body Pump class in. My gym buddy is also my Tae kwon do instructor so we find an empty studio to go and practice forms afterwards. And because it's a fancy-pants gym rather than a school hall, we actually have mirrors to check our stances in. Novel for me - and slightly distracting. Very useful though.

I've become a classes convert, much more fun than working alone and it is always a well-rounded work out. Obviously some of the instructors are better than others the men always seem to be absolute tools.

My DCs keep popping out for runs and cycle rides - they tell me I've inspired them, as did my DH too. We are all spurring each other on and it's just such a nice thing.

ErrolTheDragon · 03/10/2014 11:23

That's great, BB!

I wish I could think of something DD might want to do (possibly with me) over the winter after watersports season ends. She seems to have gone off bike rides (plus we no longer have a car with a towball so can't use the rack to carry 3 bikes). She won't run with me (too embarrassing... but where we live none of her friends would see us Hmm) and DH likely to be PFB about her running alone. Hopefully she'll consent to a few decent hillwalks at least as she's doing silver DofE next year with the same group of very fit girls! DH was wondering whether to get her gym membership when she turns 16 but that's not till Feb. Any brilliant ideas?

BigChocFrenzy · 03/10/2014 13:27

Great that your family are so supportive and also following your example, Betsy
I do mostly classes too, except for some extra lifting in the weights area. You are lucky to have such a good gym buddy too. I don't, but I have pretty good trainers. I just realised they are all males ! (I mean it hadn't registered before I have no female trainers ... I know what I mean)

Errol Gym membership for your DD sounds an excellent 16th present.
Until then, can you organise for her to try out different sports ? Some junior martial arts clubs have "taster" sessions. Also, some gyms do, so she could decide which gym and which classes.

OP posts:
BetsyBell · 03/10/2014 16:16

Hmm Errol, I've got no tips beyond setting a good example. My DCs are only 10 and 8 and literally pop out for 10 minutes at a time going round the block! They often come with me if we do park-based TKD training and pootle around on the outdoor fitness equipment or bike around the park. I'm taking full advantage of them not having reached the god-mum-you're-so-embarrassing stage. Still, by then I hope to be a black belt and who could possibly be embarrassed about that! Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 07/10/2014 23:38

Errol I see on the main thread you still can't do Big Girls.

I suggest you buy a PT (Personal Trainer) session specifically to address this. With all your lifting, you should be able to BG by now. So, you may have a technique problem or a muscular / joint weakness, either of which needs someone to actually watch you and suggest how to correct.

A single PT session could save you a lot of time and frustration.

OP posts:
Breadandwine · 03/11/2014 16:51

Wow, Oct 7th? WTF?

Guess I'm as bad! I've got good news and bad(ish) news to report.

I've got a mild form of COPD, so every twelve months I have a spirometry test - and last week's test showed my lung capacity had improved by 10% over last year's test!

I'm obviously very pleased with that. It can only be as a result of the exercise I've been doing over the past 11 months. Now if ever I feel I should slacken off a bit, that'll give me the incentive to buckle down again.

Which leads me nicely on to my other news - which is that I haven't exercised for several weeks now. First of all I had a strained shoulder which put paid to my kettlebell and press-ups. I've still got the remnants of it - just enough to make me feel that if I resume those exercises I'll just make it worse again.

And latterly I've developed an aching gluteal muscle - literally a pain in the arse! Grin And that's prevented my from doing my HIIT, and also my sit-ups.

As I'm typing this I remembered that my son had given me a tip involving sitting with the affected muscle resting on a tennis ball.

I've just been online and found a similar tip involving a rolling pin. So I tried it for about 40 seconds - and, instant relief! Not a cure, yet, but it's a darn sight easier. The doc (?) on YouTube said to do it 3 times a day and you should be OK after just a couple of days.

We'll see, but so far so good.

Now, off to research shoulder pain! Grin

Anglaise1 · 03/11/2014 17:58

Hi BCF - I found this recent article, written by the author of a new book which advocates 80/20 low/high intensity training for running which goes against the HIIT which as been the model for the last few years. I wondered what you thought?
running.competitor.com/2014/08/training/train-like-pro_111078

BigChocFrenzy · 03/11/2014 22:31

I'll have to examine that proprly tomorrow, Anglaise to see if there are supporting scientific references and studies.
I'd be cautious of something advocated by only one source, if it indeed contradicts the current scientific consensus about exercise.

Great news about your increased lung capacity, B&W
I would expect exercise to be beneficial for lung capacity, as well as the CV system.

In particular, it seems high-intensity exercise has the most effect on lung capacity and function, both for healthy exercisers and those with lung issues, e.g. ScienceArticle
So HIIT or heavy lifting etc, rather than longer periods of low-medium intensity.
You need to have intervals in which your heart is pounding and you are panting hard, alternating with adequate recovery periods.

OP posts:
Breadandwine · 04/11/2014 00:18

Thanks, BC.

About HIIT: I've become accustomed to my 3 sets of 30 secs with 20 secs recovery, so I need to up my activity somewhat. I suppose I could reduce the recovery period to 15 seconds - but it's probably better to do more sets, I guess. What do you think?

Interesting article, Anglaise, sounds convincing, but I'd have been a bit happier if he'd included some references.

I've given up my LISS exercise and have been concentrating on HIIT for the last three months. I had occasion to run for 200 metres to catch a bus last week, and I was hardly breathing heavier at all. Easy peasy, in fact!

Just had a walking weekend in the Brecons, and after a 6 mile walk I was skipping! (Well I was heading towards the pub at the time!) Grin

On that subject, I'm practically zen-like when it comes to food. I didn't eat breakfast whilst away, and, knowing that my wife was preparing a roast dinner for the evening, I didn't have lunch, either. So I sat in the pub drinking a pint and a coffee while my mates all had huge roast lunches - and didn't turn a hair.

I can remember a couple of years ago the pub we were in couldn't give me anything but veggies (for which they were going to charge me the same as if I'd had meat! Angry) which I refused in high dudgeon. But on the way home we had to stop to get me a packet of digestives to tide me over! Confused

Oh, how times have changed! [smug]

Anglaise1 · 04/11/2014 08:50

Sorry BCF and B&W - this is a better article, based on the book by Matt Fitzgerald. I couldn't get the link yesterday (rubbish broadband!) and there are references
www.runnersworld.com/race-training/train-at-the-right-intensity-ratio#

BigChocFrenzy · 04/11/2014 15:09

Anglaise The articles to which you referred are very interesting, but they don’t contradict what we’ve discussed on these IF threads. In fact, they complement it.

The authors are concerned with improving performance at one particular endurance exercise, i.e. long sessions without recovery breaks.

It makes perfect sense that most of these sessions should be low intensity: a long continuous session at high intensity is very stressful for the body and should only be done occasionally.

Performance is improved by building new muscles, blood vessels and possibly paths in the nervous system, all of which requires rest. Too frequent high intensity workouts don’t leave enough time for recovery and build, so there may be an ever-increasing deficit in this.

The ratio 80:20 sounds feasible and is backed up by elite practice plus tests on ordinary runners.
So, I recommend you try this for a few weeks, plus a short weekly HIIT sprint session to increase speed and fitness, as well as varying the load.

Like many others who’ve read the latest exercise research, I advocate HIIT, which is short intervals of high intensity, alternating with recovery periods.
These recovery periods are essential, because
The principle of hormesis is brief intermittent high loading
NOT continual high loading.

Intermittent Fasting and HIIT are based on the same principle of hormesis:
IF consists of high-stress fasting periods separated by recovery periods of relaxed eating. This is more beneficial than daily calorie restriction, which can indeed be quite dangerous if too extreme.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/11/2014 15:28

I should say that endurance athletes do need to train differently to optimise their performance.

For the rest of us - aiming to increase fitness, doing a mixture of exercise, wishing to correct metabolic issues and lose weight, etc - I recommend HIIT for both cardio and strength training. Martial arts, ball games and spin are examples of enjoyable ways to do HIIT.

There are some folk, e.g. Tip, who don't find HIIT suits them, so they do what works for their particular body.

OP posts:
Anglaise1 · 04/11/2014 16:47

I've thought about it today Bigchoc and in fact I don't think that my running plans (4 times a week, around 5 hours) have ever contained more than about 20 - 30% HIIT. Even when I do the HIIT (intervals or tempo) there is recovery too and it is difficult to do more than about 25 mins high intensity without being really exhausted (not including the recovery or warm up or down).
If you only train twice a week, then I understand that the HIIT exercise takes up a bigger percentage.
Anyway, for the next 4 weeks I'll be doing 4 sessions: a 2 hour long slow run (not more than 10kph), an hour run of 30 mins warm up and down plus 30 mins moderate, then with the club 30 mins warm up run plus upper body & core exercising, and finally a session of 45 mins warm up plus stretching plus 30 mins interval training.
If I don't improve on my current 46 min PG then I'll stick to trail racing where speed isn't so much of an issue Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 04/11/2014 19:59

Anglaise I don't think they are talking about HIIT, but about constant high intensity, i.e. running very fast at a fairly constant pace for an hour or two, aiming for a fast time.

The authors recommend on 4 out of 5 training days you run at a slow pace so that you are only just breathing faster, then on the 5th day you try to get a fast time for your distance.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/11/2014 20:10

Exercise, Fitness and Health / Longevity

Studies show that moderate amounts of exercise are sufficient for good health

Further exercise increases athletic fitness and also increases the health benefits - BUT only up to a certain point:
Over-exercising, typically long hours of steady state high intensity cardio - can actually be harmful.
The graph of exercise to health / longevity is called the "reverse J-curve"
FitnessLongevity

A common illustration is running:
20-30 mins improves the immune system, but more than 90 mins lowers its functioning for up to 3 days.
So, endurance runners have to be especially careful not to overstrain their immune system and to rest a few days after any race.

OP posts: