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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Exercise & Fitness Thread Number 2: Advice and information for those following 5:2 / IF (Intermittent Fasting)

990 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 28/03/2014 17:11

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

Increasing your % muscle and / or reducing your % body fat lowers the risk of death from all causes LowerRiskMuscle

Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and theyj can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve BendAge

Fasted training

i.e. training on FDs, seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF.
Most experienced exercisers soon manage fasted training without loss of performance for session of up to 90 mins.

Hormesis

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"
Hormesis Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis is cutting edge science for nutrition and fitness.

Its principles are that alternating between "extremes" of feast and fast (5:2 / IF) or intense training and rest (HIIT), makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain , Hormesis-Edge , and AntiFragile The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

INEFFICIENT: Low-Medium Intensity Steady state Cardio

Steady state cardio is NOT necessary for fitness and should only be a small part of your weekly cardio, unless it is all you can manage to do.

Walking outdoors is beneficial psychologically, is easy on the knee joints and has some physical benefits.

However, at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking Ref

Also low-moderate or steady state exercise tends to increase appetite, whereas intense exercise can suppress appetite for up to 15 hours.

BEST TYPES of Exercise

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

Anyone who is not specialising in a sport at a high level should aim to do both HIIT cardio and lifting / resistance training.

FAST Exercise

Dr Mosely developed a Fast Exercise program to complement his 5:2 WOE FastExercise

He lists many HIIT and strength routines that only take a few minutes, but can make significantly improve metabolism and fat-burning capability FastExercises

HOW to Exercise

The cardio machines and the girlie pink dumbbells that gyms push are NOT adequate to significantly improve fitness or burn fat.

Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:

  • Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
  • Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve.
  • You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !
However, a brisk 30 mins daily walk plus 5 mins hoop is better than nothing and if done regularly will bring some health benefits.

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less-intense recovery periods.
Examples:

  • 20 seconds high intensity + 10 secs recovery
  • 60 sec high + 30 sec low etc.

HIIT is very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis).

Scientists have proved that HIIT burns more fat than steady state lower intensity exercise and speeds up the metabolism, which helps burn more calories for up to 48 hrs.

HIIT also improves the insulin metabolism, which is very important for health.

HIIT reduces risk of heart problems more than doing lower intensity SteadyState , pp. 31-34.

HIIT increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

HIIT can be applied to cardio: e.g. cycling, running, skipping, jumping, mountain climbs or to bodyweight exercises, e.g. squatting, situps, burpees, pressups

Most gyms offer HIIT classes, e.g. spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek*(Fartlek = HIIT with irregular intervals)

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

Helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.
You can lift at home, or in the gym weights area, or in a pump class.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of a particular lifting exercise
Sets are normally separated by brief rests E.g. you might do 3 sets each of 12 reps all of the same exercise.

WARNING
Do not lift massively heavy barbells, more than bodyweight, unless you are really fit with good technique.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Press ups

  • By far the best upper body exercise
  • Keep attempting one full pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor.
  • Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
  • Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms
  • Hand Release Pressups are good to build up strength for full ones
  • Also build up via inclined pressups InclinedPress , see bottom of wiki page
  • To increase the number of pushups IncreaseNum

ATG Arse To Grass bodyweight squat

  • The best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs.
  • Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat.
-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes. -bring your arms forward
  • keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical.
  • Go down as far as you can without knee pain.

Pullups

  • Very few women can do full ones, but assisted ones build excellent muscle
  • Work the same muscles with the much easier Australian pullup or imverted row InvertedRow

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups:
squats bent-over rows (press button "female") Behind neckPress (press button "female") dead lift

To increase Strength Rather than Muscle Mass
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts.

To Build More Muscle
Lift lower (NOT Girlie) weight, do 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts.

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight-bearing exercises that load the bone along its length of these types:

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag.

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc.

Squats are much better for osteoporosis than lunges, also for knees:
The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint.

Note: Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density, as it does not load bones along their length. Osteo

KETTLEBELLS Kettle
Beginners:
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

Improve your GRIP STRENGTH GripMen , BodyBuild

CALCULATORS:
Fast Fitness Calculators: 52FastExercise
Estimate your fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Body Fat Calculator:BF
Healthy Body Fat Percentages at Different Ages: HealthyBF
TDEE with detailed activity times: TDEE

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
CorrieDale · 02/06/2014 06:52

Tkd is definitely addictive! I loved it from the very first lesson although it took me weeks to grasp the basics and a couple of years for anyone to be able to tell the difference between my kicks! I was so rubbish!! I have 3 more belts until my black belt grading. We grade every 3-4 months so in theory by next summer i should be prepping for the black belt. We do sparring from the outset - absolutely brilliant for fitness. Very high intensity. We do 90 seconds each bout and once you've done a couple of those you can really tell the people who do additional training. I sweat like nobody's business and go purple, but i'm still bouncing. I'd also train every day if I could! I've managed to persuade a couple of my friends to join and they love it too - our club is now a mix of kids and geriatrics!

I love fasting (doing ADF as I don't want to count on non-fast days) and I find it very effective for weight loss but have been a bit concerned about exercising while fasting - I get a bit dizzy esp on a Wednesday at evening training . I'd try the caffeine lift tip but it irritates my pelvic floor and I am more inclined to leak when kicking. And we do a lot of kicking! - So sometimes I struggle with energy. On 5:2 i could just manipulate the day, but not on ADF. I am going through all of both threads for tips but if anyone can help me out I'd be grateful.

BetsyBell · 02/06/2014 07:21

Grin Corrie!

I don't have any tips on coping with ADF - never done it. I'm barely managing with 2 days fasting and the level of training I'm currently doing. I'm thinking about strategies on cutting back without losing the health benefits of fasting at the moment. I don't think I want to lose any more weight.

Why ADF? You'll have to give us your stats if you want some proper advice...

BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2014 15:12

Corrie Some suggestions:

If you do any steady state cardio, cut it out, at least for now.
It is less efficient at accessing fat stores and more likely to increase hunger than HIIT, heavy lifting or martial arts etc.
Also, it doesn't help the insulin metabolism and abs fat burning as much as HIIT.

On FDs
. Do make sure you eat your full 25% TDEE on FDs.
Varady found in ADF human trials that this is the best combination for weight loss and muscle retention.

. Eat plenty of protein & veg. You might also need a small portion of say quinoa, which has the complete profile of amino acids, as well as providing good slow-release energy.
I avoid fruit or yoghurt on FDs, as I find either makes me hungry 30 mins later. They are simple carbs.

. On your toughest training FD, you could allow yourself up to 900 cals - I did this for all FDs my first few months on IF (because I couldn't maintain performance on less, while learning to fast)
Depends on your priority how you balance training / weight loss measures.

. Do not train longer than 90 mins on FDs, preferably 60 mins.
The more intense the training, the more you can access fat stores and also increase fitness.

. If you train evenings, split your cals into lunch and post-training supper
I found my energy for evening training dropped if I ate most of my cals afterwards.
250-300 cals a few hours before training still leaves you semi-fasted and burning fat. After training, a small meal still lets me burn fat overnight.

On NFDs
. Don't go low carb. You need high quality complex carbs - quinoa, brown rice, sweet potatoes, wholegrain bread - for energy to last the next FD as well.
Obviously plenty of protein and veg, plus 1-2 portions fruit.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2014 15:36

On FDs, 10 mins before and after training, take zero-cal BCAA (Branch Chain Amino Acid) drink, such as Xtend (it is a powder, mixes easily with water in the glass) I take ? of a man's portion.

OP posts:
CorrieDale · 02/06/2014 17:26

Thank you for the tips. Betsy I need to lose a stone - I lost 3 stone two years ago on WW. I kept it off for a year and then my constant vigilance slackened, and over the last year I've put a stone on. I do like 5:2 but I find that having to watch what I ate on the 5, while still enduring the 2, makes me feel hard done by. And then I eat! (I am aware that this is not the healthiest attitude to food!)

I am veggie and have tried low carbing. My skin glowed, I had energy and I could really see the benefits but I lost hardly any weight and I was miserable. It was never going to be a WOE! Whereas i'm getting on Ok with ADF. I suspect I'll like 6:1 more, mind!

BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2014 19:51

Corrie I suggest you mfp for one week, just to check intake.
Varady writes that 90% of people on ADF do not need to calorie count NFDs - which suggests 10% do need to !

Also, you need to develop reasonable control over NFDs before maintenance:
if you want to 6:1 then, you would need to regularly average goal TDEE plus 250 on those 6 days

OP posts:
BetsyBell · 02/06/2014 21:25

Just bopped my DH on the nose practising my step-sparring - oops! Good job none of my sparring partners in class are as tall or have big honks

Grin

He likes watching me practise when air is the target! ie, stays safely out of the way of flying fists and feet.

corrie I can't offer up anything better than bigchoc but you haven't said what your food weaknesses are... sugar? white bread? (just naming some of mine that I've pretty much overcome after a year of 5:2)

BigChocFrenzy · 02/06/2014 22:28

Betsy
Poor DH ! (did the DC laugh ?)
Grin

OP posts:
BetsyBell · 02/06/2014 22:32

Well he should have been blocking his vulnerable bits...

DCs were in bed - but they've enjoyed being flung around the room as they hold a sofa cushion for me to punch.

MazzleDazzle · 03/06/2014 09:04

Just checking in to admit I haven't exercised at all in a week! I have many excuses, but they are just that...excuses. A month ago, none of which would have stopped me getting a work out in.

I blame work. I knew it was going to be difficult fitting it in once I was back. I'm just too tired and don't have the same time anymore. HIIT class tomorrow before work though and will try to squeeze in a work out today if I can.

Well done Betsy on your TKD. Hope your poor DH is okay!

CorrieDale · 03/06/2014 21:27

I am doing just that BigChoc! I am finding that I am less inclined to binge on my NFDs now that I know that I can do it if i want. I'd like to say I have a particular food weakness Betsy but I don't really. If it's there and is veggie then I'll eat it. Simple greed I think! Anyway, I am religiously logging on MFP - it is not impressed by my all or nothingness!

Your club sounds very interesting Betsy - ours is very traditional ITF. Apart from the fact that adults and kids train together! That's not so common and it does make for less full-on sparring. Bopping kids on the nose is strictly off limits. Husbands, not so much! Poor thing. Was there blood?

BetsyBell · 03/06/2014 21:43

Corrie, mazzle He's fine! I swiped his nose by accident as I went to reach for his shoulder to pull him forward and hook his leg for a step-sparring move! I think he thought it was going to be worse having seen my previous punches and overreacted!

We have a big mixture of styles and although embrace the traditional aspects of the artistry we like to add in plenty of flair. So we look great while we're kicking ass! (In theory.)

Soo, the greed. Are you a constant nibbler? So your aim is really to stop the picking perhaps? You must be managing this on your fast days so it is possible. I think, in time, the fasting days will help you learn a bit of self control (one of the tenets of TKD Grin ). One think that can help is to really focus on each mouthful, think about it and definitely choose to have it, rather than being passive about it. Does any of that ring true? Hopefully the MFP logging will help with the mindfulness of it too.

CorrieDale · 04/06/2014 08:22

I think you're spot on betsy. I do we'll on my fast days because I am mindful of my eating all day. I 'just' need to carry it over.

FD today and training tonight! I'm thinking cauliflower rice and veg curry for dinner!

ErrolTheDragon · 05/06/2014 12:56

Hello all. I'm doing RippedIn30 (again) - this time with bigger weights - my 6kg dumbells for one of the sets (though two of the moves you only use one anyway). Back to doing inclined press-ups and extra free weights alternate days - deadlifts with the 10kg pair now. May have a day off tomorrow as watersports start on saturday and I'd be gutted if I managed to hurt myself.

Now a question - what is people's opinion on cooldown stretches? Warmup seems essential, and a bit of letting the heart rate subside at the end... but I've been turning off the dvd before the cooldown to do the extra bits and then not bothering and I can't say I feel it's made any difference. The only stretch I do is one which isn't on the shred/ripped - the 'cobra' but that's more of a spine thing than muscle stretching.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/06/2014 15:59

Errol
Dynamic warmup (i.e. with movement) may help avoid injury. Do a general warmup, then a more specific warmup for your particular exercise, just 5 mins total is probably enough.
This helps prepare the heart and circulatory system, increases felxibility of tendons and ligaments.
Studies have shown static warmup stretches do NOT help and can in fact cause injury

Post-training, it is more useful to have 5-10 mins brisk walk, to gradually lower your heart rate and temperature come down. It also speeds up lactate removal from the blood.
Do static stretches after this dynamic part.

I must admit, I am normally too rushed leaving / returning home to do any of this, but I know it is useful
Blush

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/06/2014 16:02

Errol Which watersports ? And are you a participant or spectator / family cheerleader ?

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 05/06/2014 16:24

BC - the JM warmup is dynamic stretches and a bit of cardio - its the static muscle stretching at the end which really doesn't seem too vital to me. I cool down (temperature-wise) during the extra bits I do after that, and generally potter a bit.( If I've run, I get a half mile walk there and back anyway...haven't done that for a while, weather looks ok tomorrow so might)

The watersports are dinghy sailing and windsurfing. DH and I did some pre-DD - then had a long gap and tried to get her into it. She found sailing scary but adored windsurfing. After a lot of saturday afternoons watching her, we took the (all too literal!) plunge ... and she gradually got into sailing too. Smile

MollyBdenum · 05/06/2014 17:44

Hello. I'm new here. After a long break from running after developing plantar fasciitis, I finished C25k at the end of April. I really hate doing strength training and am a puny weakling, but I've been working through Body By You for the past few weeks, and am getting on with it much better than other bodyweight training plans as it is designed for puny weaklings so there are manageable jumps between progressions, and it doesn't take longer than half a hour to do, or require any equipment, so I actually do the work. I'm trying to look at my feeble triceps as a wonderful opportunity to improve rather than a humiliating inability to do even super easy ups with good form, and I am making progress.

At the moment I'm doing the bodyweight training the times a week, doing an run with sprint intervals once a week and a parkrun once a week.

When I get a job and have more money, I want to take up capoeira. That needs lots of upper body strength, so is an incentive to keep up with the strength training.

almostthereagain · 05/06/2014 19:16

Hi all, I often read the exercise thread so thought I'd join in.
I have back problems & find I'm much better when my core is strong so I try to do 15mins pilates & yoga stretches each day, doesn't always happen though. I have done JM dvds but not for a while. I lent them to a friend & haven't seen them since!! Some of her exercises I can't do, burpees are too much for my back for eg.
I have tried & failed at running & found it tough on my back & knees last time, although I was a stone 1/2 heavier then (pre 5:2) & core was shot to pieces.
I am weak in shoulders & arms so would like to build up some strength & am trying to tone my legs, inner thighs specifically, as well as general core strength.
I ride 2-3 times a week & walk the dog at a fast pace, although she's off walkies just now as has pups! Like swimming but struggle to find time to do regularly. I would like to increase my strength, muscle & tone & aerobic fitness but not really sure where to go from hereConfused

BigChocFrenzy · 05/06/2014 19:47

Welcome, Molly, Almost
Sounds like you would benefit from strength training
"Toning means working the muscles" in combination with losing body fat via 5:2/IF
Smile
You both seem to be at a level for this kind of plan:

Upper body
. Big Girl pressups (i.e. full ones) if you can, or see the OP how to work up to these with inclined pressups on a step or wall and XFit pressups.
The aim is to keep your body in a straight line, with abs rigid.
Little girlie pressups, with knees on the floor, are not much use
Start with 3 sets of 5, whatever pressups you can do and work up to 3 sets of 10 Big Girls.
. Tricep dips on a step. The lower the step, the tougher it is. Also tougher is keeping your legs fairly straight, instead of bent at the knees.
Again, start with 3 sets of 5, but work up to 3 sets of 20
. Standing shoulder press . If you have access to dumbells. Work up to 3 sets of 8. When you can do these, increase the weight, not the reps or sets.
. Bentover Row . Again with dumbells, 3 sets of 8.

Legs and bum (bodyweight)
. Deep squats, as low as possible without hurting knees. Work up to 3 sets of 10.
. (Optional) inner thighs: add 2 sets of very wide squats
. Forward lunges, but only if your knees are ok. Don't go any deeper than is ok for your knees.
Work up to 2 sets of 12 each side.

Abs
. Situps Start at 3 sets of 5. Build up to 3 sets of 15.
. The plank, which will also help pressups.
If you don't do this yet, start at 2 x 15 secs. Work up to 2x 45 secs

Videos of some of these are in the OP. Have fun and become stronger.
Smile

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/06/2014 19:51

Almost I suggest you try walking / sprinting intervals, 1 min each.
Build up to 10-15 mins.
Also, rope skipping is good for fat-burning

OP posts:
almostthereagain · 05/06/2014 21:18

Thanks v much bcSmile Will report back on how I get on tomorrow.
You in molly?

MollyBdenum · 05/06/2014 22:22

I think I'll stick with my current plan, which is fairly similar and once that's a regular habit introduce another day of HIIT cardio if I can think of something lowish impact that I can do at home.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/06/2014 22:44

Molly If you have access to an exercise bike, then crank up the resistance and do sprint / slow intervals for 10-15mins
Then put some fast dance music on and do your own spin class.

OP posts:
vvviola · 05/06/2014 23:20

I'm jumped over from the main thread looking for some exercise help.

I'm very unfit, and have never been much of an exerciser, although I have had various stints at the gym that I enjoyed but couldn't continue for one reason or another. I took up running a few years ago doing the Couch to 5k programme but it seems to cause issues for my feet (podiatrist said I have "muscle chain" issues so everything is off centre and tighter than it should be, but he was a bit flaky in other areas so I wasn't sure how reliable his opinion was)

Anyway:
Current exercise: 1 tap dancing class per week. Take the 4 flights of stairs at work every day, a bit of walking. Briefly did Zumba but had to stop when I got a job.

Problems: I can't go to a gym/class etc. DH's work hours are long and erratic and it's hard enough getting out to my dance class once a week. So realistically for the moment it needs to be something I can do at home. And probably in the evenings (although I sometimes get a spare 20 minutes between end of work and first school pick up). I also quite inflexible and never feel like I'm doing exercises properly. DH goes into fits of laughter watching me attempt a sit up. I have no muscles to speak of at all Grin

I have access to an exercise bike and rowing machine (both DH's). I also have a Jillian Michaels (is that the right name?) exercise thing on the Wii.

I like the idea of HIIT, but I'd always be concerned I wasn't doing "enough".

Any thoughts?

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