Constructively dismissed by Girlguiding

[iloveholidays1]

Hi all,

I have been constructively dismissed by Girlguiding for raising concerns. And no, not their trans policy ones. My daughters have also been excluded as result. They never investigated or dealt with my concerns.

I'm putting this here because:

1. I want people to know that volunteering with them is dangerous and you could find yourself in the very difficult situation I find myself in with my girls
2. If anyone else experiences this in the future, please get in touch. I spoke to a few journalists at length about this. A handful were interested in the story, but ultimately their editor said it couldn't fly without multiple people saying the same things.

I appreciate this is a very brief post and I'm happy to give more details, but I'm aware that short posts are easier to process. If I was reading this a few years ago I'd think "there's more to this than meets the eye", and there definitely is, but I'm keen to keep this short and sweet.

Can you explain what the issue was?

@AppleKatie Do you mean what concerns I raised that I was constructively dismissed for?

What were your concerns? This will get pullled soon.

If you were volunteering, I'm not sure that you can be constructively dismissed?

What were you constructively dismissed for though? 😆

@AriettyHomily why will it get pulled?

Lots of stuff - didn't bother with recuitment checks for multiple volunteers and lied about it - so could have had offenders volunteering with us for months. Horrid, horrid discrimination against girls with disabilities and additional support needs with one disabled girl in particular who has now been forced to leave. Risk assessments which were so bad, I don't think they'd have been insured because they were so negligent - I think they weren't read. When allegations of bullying made, instead of referring to safe practice as is required, saying that the person making the allegation is the problem. Shall I go on...?

Go on…

This stuff sounds bad OP, but it also sounds like the issues are to do with rogue volunteers/improper application of policy at local level.

whilst unpleasantly it is not the same as ‘the organisation’ constructively dismissing you. How far have your complaints gone? Have they been dealt with by HQ?

@TheNosehasit constructively dismissed for raising concerns as far as I can see, and they never denied it after well over a year of me saying it.

You can be constructively dismissed as a volunteer, as I understand it, but taking the matter through an employment tribunal is much harder than if you're paid staff - but why would you want to? It's expensive, stressful and what would you get at the end of it? Frankly, I don't have the balls that Katie Alcock does.

@AppleKatie it was HQ who constructively dismissed me after raising it with them after getting nowhere locally. HQ had well over a year to investigate and did naff all, according to a subject access request.

Specifically what did you complain to HQ about? Are you saying that you were constructively dismissed because of their refusal to deal with your complaint?

sorry, it’s hard to make sense of what your are actually getting at.

Did an Employment Tribunal rule that you had been constructively dismissed?

@AppleKatie complained to HQ about all of the above - they didn't investigate. Told me I wasn't allowed to talk to parents while they "investigated", and proceded to do nothing. No, I'm not saying simply because they wouldn't investigate or do anything I was constructively dismissed. They put me in a position where I felt I had to resign. I never thought they'd behave like this (I started volunteering for them decades ago) so tried to hold out as long as I could. Happy to go in to details of why I felt I needed to resign if that's the question you're asking?

@StellaGibson2022 nope, an ET didn't rule that - I wouldn't bother taking it to an ET. What's my loss? My children can't go to Girlguiding and I've got hurt feelings? Don't think that's worth the £ I might get from fighting that for years.

have they given a reason for doing nothing? Incompetence? Malice? Disbelief? Have they said why your complaint wasn’t investigated?

Well I'd love to hear their version of events....2 sides and all that

Constructive dismissal is an employment term that does not apply to volunteers. You do not have employment rights and you cannot go to an industrial tribunal.

An organisation can end your volunteering role for any reason - unless discriminating on a protected characteristic

It sounds like you've exhausted their complaints process and they've kicked you out.

It also sounds like journalists are making a polite excuse not to get involved. If they thought there was a story they would go for it.

Time to let it go.

@AppleKatie no they haven't given a reason. They claim that they were investigating, but I made a subject access request and found no evidence to support that. They've had 1-2 years to investigate (the exact length of time depends on which issue you're referring to).

You absolutelyu cannot be dismissed - constructively or otherwise - if you are a volunteer. There is no employment relationship. Tribunals are not expensive - they are free. It isn't harder to make a claim than if you are paid staff - it is IMPOSSIBLE if you are a volunteer.

Why can’t your daughters go now?

I don't think you understand what constructive dismissal means.

@ThatGirlInACountrySong - indeed, I'd love to hear their version of events too, and so would the journalist who I know phoned them for a statement at least twice.

@MajorCarolDanvers it's called an employment tribunal. Are you a solicitor or a barrister? Constructive dismissal if not a term that is exclusively for ET claims. I've already said I don't want to go to an ET so why are you advising me that I can't? It's not true to say an organisation can kick you out for any reason but I'm not here to argue about the legal issues. How could I have exhausted their complaints process if they've not provided a substantive response? I'm not sure journalists would speak to me for several hours in total and in some cases seek the response of GG if they were just making polite excuses. Surely they'd just ignore me? I wouldn't have time to speak to someone I didn't know for hours just to be "polite". It sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. You can think what you like, but I want this post here for others who may either consider volunteering for them or suffer the experience that my children and I did.

This was obviously a role you enjoyed and to which you gave many years.

I can't give you much advice really other than to suggest that you put your enthusiasm into a volunteer role which might be more in need of volunteers?

I know what it feels like when you're not valued or appreciated.

There are very many charities who could benefit from your dedication and commitment in the future.

Onwards and upwards!

I would agree that DBS checks are really important and if not being carried out, this should definitely be investigated.

Are there any other causes which you feel passionate about? I know of one in particular which is crying out for support (it's a tiny little voice in the wilderness currently). In fact, thinking about it, your girl-guide experience might even be something they'd love to help the women with.

It's not everyone's bag, but it's a group called Women in Prison (their aim is to keep women out of prison as far as possible).

This is from their latest newsletter

Today we publish our new report on The Value of Women's Centres. It shows Women’s Centres generate a nearly triple return on public investment, by keeping women out of prison and easing demand for other services.
But nearly half of Women’s Centres surveyed are concerned about their survival.
Read the report
The new modelling shows that an example Women’s Centre receiving £1m in a given year can support over 650 women and generate £2.75m in public sector savings, while providing a lifeline for vital services and significantly improving wellbeing for women and their children.
The Government have already acknowledged that Women’s Centres are central to ensuring they can meet the aims of their women’s justice strategy and that the needs of women facing multiple disadvantage cannot be addressed in isolation by different government departments.

Help us spread the word
You can support us:

Send the report to your friends and family
Show support on twitter, by retweeting or using the hashtag #ValueWomensCentres (some suggested tweets below)
Women’s Centres generate a nearly triple return on public investment, by keeping women out of prison and easing demand for other services. Read @WIP_live new report womeninprison.org.uk/news/report-launch-the-value-of-womens-centres

We need sustainable funding for Women’s Centres now #ValueWomensCentres

I support @WIP_live and call for the sustainable funding for Women’s Centres #ValueWomensCentres

Read their new report here: womeninprison.org.uk/news/report-launch-the-value-of-womens-centres

Thank you again for your support
Name1 and Name2, the Campaigns Team

@Quveas I know it's unusual for a volunteer to be able to prove a relationship in an ET, and I can't see how a Girlguiding volunteer would. There are a few examples where a relationship has been demonstrated, eg Maria DeLourdes Armitage v Relate & others, Migrant Advisory Service v Mrs K Chaudri, Murray v Newham Citizens Advice Bureau. Etc. But I'm not here to talk about an ET claim. ET claims are expensive when the other side would undoubtebly have a KC representing them, and you need representation. Yes, of course you can represent yourself at an ET, but cases where you'd win against senior counsel are very few and far between, although Michalak comes to mind. Legal representation is expensive - I would know, I've done it. The term "constructive dismissal" isn't a particularly technical or legal one, and can be used whilst an ET judge hasn't deemed this true. It just means I've been forced to leave my role against my will because of Girlguiding's conduct.

@Macaroni1924 my girls can't go because I got an email saying they'd been removed from Girlguiding. I didn't get an explanation. Subject access shows district commissioner instructed them to be removed when I made the complaints.

If the line "constructive dimissal" isn't a preferred one, that's fine, I don't really care what term is used but it seems a useful summary term of what happened.

I understand you have felt you needed to resign due to their inaction.

Have they barred your children? Or are you saying that where you are it is unsafe for your children to go without you and therefore you need to stop them going?