Music Junior Programs

[MissScotland]

Hi lovely mamas,

I'm trying to look into and learn about the different junior music programs with a view for my DD to start next year. She's in year 5, grade 6 on the piano (will be taken in March), grade 3 violin, grade 5 theory (distinction). She's super musical and talented with a passion for composition too.

We are looking at the primary academy and RAM, Junior Guildhall and RCMJD. At the moment she has two piano lessons a week, one at home and one at school and a weekly theory/composition lesson. We think she'll get quite a lot out of a junior program, socialising with kids with the same interest and playing in different groups.

I was wondering if you can shed some light on a preferred program. At the moment I'm leaning towards RAM simply because it's the closest, but we are will to drive further for a good reason.

Also, is it common to apply to more than one program in the process? How hard is it to get in?

Another question that might sound silly but I'll give it a go anyway - is year 6 a good year to start? With 11+ exams and music scholarship exams and auditions for secondary schools I wouldn't want to push her too much. She's only 9...

I'd love to hear your thoughts, tips and insight, ideally from first hand experience :-)

Thanks in advance!

Hi, jumping on this thread. how do you know if your child is the right standard/level for a Junior music program/school? My DD is 9yo (yr 4) and taking Grade 5 violin this term. She's progressed quickly - Grade 1 in Dec 2019, then Grade 4 in Dec 2020. She also plays the harp. i know how super competitive violin is, and she is not a prodigy - but she learns quickly and enjoys playing and performing. i don't want to embarrass her by applying if she's way short of the required level. any ideas?

@LuluKentGirl to me your daughter sounds at the right level. From my experience, when I started the process a few months ago the majority of comments I got here were negative. Implying that my daughter’s level wasn’t high enough. And here we are a few months later with amazing feedback and multiple offers to top junior programs.
You know what your daughter is like, her music teachers know her really well. Listen to yourself and to them. You have almost a year to prepare for the auditions, she’ll make a huge progress over this time (based on what you said, she progresses very fast).
Yes, strings are competitive but it shouldn’t make a difference to you, plus the harp is a great advantage. What a lovely instrument to play!
BTW my daughter plays the piano which is very competitive too, and auditioned at grade 6 level.
Best of luck!

@LuluKentGirl she sounds like she's at the right sort of level to me. Harp is sought after too. So although violin is competitive (and even then, my DD got into GH playing at G6 level at 10) harp will be a big asset. They do look for more than their 'grade' standard though- basic technique, musicality and potential are much bigger indicators of success especially for younger children.

Good luck!

@LuluKentGirl It sounds like she had made amazing progress. The application for our JD was in February so you have plenty time. Ours doesn't say a grade but looks for potential which makes it hard to know but her teacher suggested she try. Some places offer advice lessons where you can get some feedback. Good luck whatever you decide.

thank you, that's great to hear. so is it right that she would audition in early 2022 (she will be 10) for entry September that year? so going into Yr 6...

@LuluKentGirl
That’s right. Audition around March 2022 for entry September 2022.

@LuluKentGirl I would definitely go for it (if she's keen!) I had the same anxiety as you (my DC had only been learning a year and a half when we applied, and I didn't want to put them through the audition process if they didn't stand a chance) but it's true that they look for potential and spark, not polished performers. It's been said on here many times, and the music conservatoire teachers have since confirmed it to us - they turn down grade 8 distinction candidates if those students don't have the spark and musicality they're looking for. They're much more interested in raw talent - even at a relatively early stage of a student's learning.

A lot of us on this thread have been through the audition process this year and our DCs are taking up places in Sept so do ask any questions you need!

There's also nothing wrong with auditioning and not getting in. She learnt something each time. My DD took three attempts to get into the National Youth Orchestra of Scotland. Perseverance will be necessary to progress in music, even if not aiming for a career in it. Enjoy the process of preparing as well as the outcome. You can only control your side, not who else applies etc.

Hi all! Just stumbled across this thread. For those thinking of applying to JD id say go for it! An audition at the very least can't hurt and from my experience theyre not there to scrutinize you, and is done quite informally. As for me im currently in my 4th year of main programme at Trinity JD and have been going there for around 10 years, (with string time) Remember if your child is still too young for main programme you could always apply to band or string time which is for primary school level. I absolutely love it there definitely the highlight of my week! Everyone there is amazing and the lessons are enaging and imformative! As well as this the concert opportunities (before covid) were amazing! We do a winter concert at St Lukes , a spring concert at the chapel around February half term, a spring concert at black heath halls just before Easter break, a summer chapel concert around may half term and a big summer concert and prizegiving ceremony at Southbank centre in early July/late June! As well as this we have weekly tea time concerts where you get the opportunity to play with an accomponamist in front of an audience on site. I don't want to sound biased but i do really think it's one of the better JD's out there. I have a friend who goes to guildhall JD and she doesn't like it there. Lat time i spoke to her about a month ago she said she had only been onsite a couple times for a quartet lesson since september as opposed to trinitys 3 week rota. I also don't know any other JD that has as many concerts at different venues like Trinity. Not to mention the facilities and buildings are fantastic. I actually saw Dwayne Johnson filming fast and furious just outside the entrance once! Safe to say i coudnt recommend Trinity enough. If you have any questions about anything regarding trinity or JD's in general do feel free to ask, i'd be happy to help!

Hi User2005, thanks so much for sharing your experiences with us. My son who is 15 next month has just got a place at Junior Trinity from September on violin. He auditioned for GH 2 and a half years ago but didn't get in. Ds is Autistic and I have been so impressed so far at how helpful and supportive they've been through the audition process and now we're about to start talks via Zoom about violin tutors. Ds is so excited. It would be lovely to chat to you more if you'd like to pm me?

@disorganisedmummy Hi! (I think this is dm im not really very familiar with this site). I would love to chat about trinity with you further. Did you have any specific questions or just want like a general view of the day and preparation before september? Also if you need any teacher recommendations i'd be happy to give some. Personally i don't do violin but i know a lot of teachers who do since a lot of them run quartets which i've been in. Let me know!

Hello everyone! My daughter is in Junior Guildhall and is happy with her instrument teacher (you need to be proactive and try to get to know the likely teachers; we basically said who we wanted to study with and there was a vacancy so it worked out).

Two comments about RAM - The primary academy programme is shorter than the other JD's, so much so that we wouldn't have gone for audition if I had got my act together and realised in time! For example, orchestra is only 30 mins - hardly any time at all considering time taken to unpack instruments, find music etc. Secondly, the audition was an awful experience for my daughter. She played her pieces well but during sight reading, they didn't have music for her instrument and said Oh you read violin music don't you? and plonked it in front of her. There were notes that would have been very high for violin (like 3 or 4 lines above the stave) let alone her instruments. The member of staff stood a foot behind my daughter, breathing heavily, interrupting to say "was that a c sharp?!" in the middle! This unkind and off putting attitude from someone who was quite personable when I chatted to her previously was a shock. The comments that came back in the letter (she did not get an offer) criticised some finer points about her bow control; I think they want finished musicians rather than a very talented 9 year old who had only been playing her instrument for a year....! I have been told the Royal Academy is better for the older years, but seems unfriendly for the littler ones.

Thanks @Joxie, that's very helpful.
May I ask, what was your experience moving from the primary to junior academy?

@MissScotland - we were never in the primary academy of RAM (that was the one that she had the bad audition for!) and so never in the junior academy of RAM.

Unashamed plug for Junior Guildhall - it is a happy school, kids go round looking like they are having fun and being cheeky! (OK cannot comment on this year given COVID disruptions). We went through three years of First Strings Experience at the Royal Academy with my other child (reception year onwards) and just by looking at the 9,10, 11, 12, 13, 14 etc year old floating around the RAM cafeteria and building, they looked stressed and not cheeky anymore!

I think it's a healthier and more inclusive attitude for kids to have fun, play together, and work hard, continue loving music, rather than aim to be the very top (which will be very few) and then have a crisis if you are not (which will be the vast majority of people). My daughter is grade 7 in her instrument and also in the NCO. She does have fun and she does work hard which is all I can ask as a parent right now!

We also looked at RCM, similar impression to RAM in that they wanted a nearly finished musician.... (which to me smacks of not wanting to put in the hard work teaching a child, just want to claim credit for the end product). We didn't look at Trinity because it is too far to get to.

@MissScotland - about music scholarships at the 11+ - just been through this process. I don't think it's worth the time taken from exam prep, because a) 11+ to me is more important b)the financial amount awarded by the scholarship is small - 5% of fees or free music lessons c) there may be substantial opportunity cost in that music scholarship obligations prevent you doing other extracurrics d) you can still get involved in the music scene in any case even as a non-scholarship student

There was one school (CLSG) which has outstanding music that we thought my daughter would benefit from (given she goes to Guildhall). We auditioned (unsuccessfully). There's a first round video submission, then they invite you for in-person second round audition. When I asked the school for feedback I was told the girls who were invited for second round had grade 8 in the primary instrument, and someone else told me one child with 4 (yes four) grade 8 distinctions (!!!) was not called back! (How do you achieve 4 grade 8 (let alone distinction!) by the age of 10??)

@Joxie, I am sorry about your DD's experience at RAM and glad to hear she found her place at Guildhall. Just let me defend RCMJD as my DS went RCMJD and had a very happy time there. He auditioned at 9 and at the time he hadn't done any exams and didn't know how to play all the scales on the instrument he auditioned for, so he was nowhere near a finished musician. RAM and RCM seem to carry this highly pressurised, cold and snobby image but at least it was not our experience (I know DCs who attend at RAM too). Your DD found her happy place, not because one is better but because one suits her better which is great and that's what we all need to find for our DCs. I agree each institution has its own atmosphere but whether it appears to be friendly would also depend on the receivers and how it's taken.

@LuluKentGirl I think that your DD is in with a chance if she continues to progress. DO remember that JDs will be looking not only at potential but also how long children have been learning. Someone who turns up at 10 with Grade 5 only having learned for 18 months is going to be of at least as much (if not more) interest than someone with Grade 7 who has been learning since they were in nappies - and there are lots of those!!

@Joxie - I know someone who got a music scholarship to CLSG at 11+ - she was already well past Grade 8 and in a top spot at NCO. She expected to be the number 1 for music in her year until she was introduced to her fellow music scholar - who had gained LTCL at the tender age of 10.....

@Londonmummy66 - amazing! there are some terrifyingly talented children out there! . Wonder how your friend with the grade 8 and top NCO spot felt when she met the LTCL girl? Hopefully, inspired!

There's always someone better than you....We consistently tell our children it's not a competition with other children, but a 'race' within yourself to see how well you can do with what you have. That, and learning from people even better than you. FWIW, my daughter is very quick academically and can do very well with little exertion. Music is the thing that makes her slow down, unpick everything, practise, think, adjust, practise, refine... You have to be tenacious!

Joxie it came as quite a shock both to her and her parents!

I've always dinned into my children and pupils that music is a privilege and not a competition - sad but very true. Mine have always preferred collaborative work to solo performance though so sometimes they can be a bit too chilled.

so we decided to go for it, and both DS (cello) and DD (violin) have submitted audition videos for Junior Trinity string time. the deadline was Monday. anyone else waiting for news?

we had good news on Friday, both 7yo DS (cello) and 9yo DD (violin) accepted into the Junior Trinity strings programme, yay! They are super chuffed and excited. am panicking a bit about the logistics however as their class hours are different (DS 9-12 and DD 11-3pm). anyone else in this boat?

Just read about this amazing boy who attends Junior Guildhall. How fabulous!

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/05/nhs-staff-perform-thank-you-piece-composed-by-six-year-old-boy

Just came cross this post and would appreciate views to see if my DD (aged 9 and year 5) stands a chance for junior programs? She is practicing piano (passed grade 6 with distinction & grade 5 theory with distinction) and cello (just started less a year so only grade 2). Not sure if it’s good idea to put cello as second instrument given her current level? Thanks

Hi, I would have thought she stands a good chance although I know piano is quite competitive so some places may not be able to take all the pianists over grade 6 for example as they need to balance the numbers for ensembles.
Some places ask for a minimum standard; others say they look for potential. It usually costs more to do two instruments but it is more convenient to have everything in the one place for us. My dd was grade 6 on both instruments when she applied if that helps. Happy to answer any other questions or join the spring music thread, it's very friendly.

@horseymum thank you so much! We would prefer she could learn both instruments at the same place. However we are not sure if her current cello level will negatively impact her application for the main instrument…