Music Junior Programs

[MissScotland]

Hi lovely mamas,

I'm trying to look into and learn about the different junior music programs with a view for my DD to start next year. She's in year 5, grade 6 on the piano (will be taken in March), grade 3 violin, grade 5 theory (distinction). She's super musical and talented with a passion for composition too.

We are looking at the primary academy and RAM, Junior Guildhall and RCMJD. At the moment she has two piano lessons a week, one at home and one at school and a weekly theory/composition lesson. We think she'll get quite a lot out of a junior program, socialising with kids with the same interest and playing in different groups.

I was wondering if you can shed some light on a preferred program. At the moment I'm leaning towards RAM simply because it's the closest, but we are will to drive further for a good reason.

Also, is it common to apply to more than one program in the process? How hard is it to get in?

Another question that might sound silly but I'll give it a go anyway - is year 6 a good year to start? With 11+ exams and music scholarship exams and auditions for secondary schools I wouldn't want to push her too much. She's only 9...

I'd love to hear your thoughts, tips and insight, ideally from first hand experience :-)

Thanks in advance!

@LondonMum20222 thank you for that. She is 10 and currently plays cello, piano and sings. Voice would be her first study and I think that not all JDs accept voice until age 12? She does have a very comfortable grade 5 distinction in singing.

We were asked on the form to state grade of most recent exam taken and mark. But there will be young musicians accepted who have not sat any exams.

@yodaforpresident Somewhere on Mumsnet is a very lively debate (!) about the appropriate age to train young singers - I can't remember if it was an 11+ music scholarship debate or a JD debate. But I would just ask the admissions staff at each of the JDs you're thinking of applying to, and get it direct from them. And if the JDs won't, if you're in London you could try CYM as a stop gap until she's 12 so at least she's getting all the other musical training?

Thank you @LondonMum20222 DD is currently being taught by a singing teacher who was a chorister themselves so we trust him. I will look out for that thread as I know its controversial.

it's of course.

Anyone already done the live audition for RCMJD? How long does it take for them to give the result?

We had our result back one week after the live audition @Emilyviolin666

Has anyone heard back yet from JRAM?

@Musicschoolquestions

We had our result back one week after the live audition *@Emilyviolin666*

Thank you so much! Hope your DD got the offer!

@Emilyviolin666 - thank you Emily & yes she did very exciting

@MissScotland @doesanybodyhaveamap @Jovanka @horseymum Thank you so much for all your help! DD got offers from RAM and Guildhall and we are waiting for RCM result now! Didn’t imagine we could achieve this several months ago!

@Emily201 congrats 🥳 great achievement!

Very well done @emily201’s DD! Which is your favourite?

@MissScotland thank you so much!

@Jovanka. We are leaning to RAM but similar to other mums who posted here, not sure if we plan to go through this process again in a couple of years time.

Wondering if any other mums with DCs at RAM PA can share how they manage after the PA? And how difficult to stay in RAM or join other JDs after a couple of years?

@Emily201 Huge congrats to your DD! That's a brilliant achievement.

My DC is at Guildhall and absolutely loves it. We chose it over RAM and RCM for a number of reasons.

We just didn't like the vibe at RCM (it felt v hierarchical and competitive) and Primary RAM worried us for two reasons: we definitely didn't want to go through another audition process in Year 7. (When they've only just settled into senior school, putting them through more auditions, and a possible change of conservatoire, felt unnecessary). And we knew that last year, a large number of Primary RAM students didn't make it through to Junior RAM, which we did find disconcerting.

The Primary RAM schedule was also, we felt, insubstantial compared to RCM and Guildhall. (RCM and Guildhall follow an almost identical timetable. Primary RAM is about half the teaching time. Some people might prefer just a half day's teaching, but we wanted a fuller programme).

We had friends who chose Primary RAM last year, who have been v disappointed with the experience and are now planning to move to RCM. They felt that it just wasn't a very comprehensive programme. The mum described it to me as "more like an afternoon's play."

We also liked the Heads (of both the whole school and the dept) more at the Guildhall than RCM or RAM, but that's v much a personal thing. We found the Guildhall staff more open, welcoming and flexible, and that's definitely been born out in our time there so far.

If you've been to the Open Days, you should have a gut feeling for which feels like the best fit for your DD. We knew pretty quickly that the Guildhall culture felt right for DC. We love the fact that all the kids are super supportive of each other, and that everyone's encouraged to run their own race. There are no regular public concerts where the "stars" are picked to perform (presumably making other students feel pretty rubbish). It's really quite remarkable how they have so many incredibly talented young musicians in one building and yet it never feels hierarchical, pressurised or competitive. The older students are really kind and encouraging with the younger ones, which is lovely to see. All the teachers DC has are fantastic and I really can't recommend the place highly enough.

Good luck with the decision (I know it's not easy!) and feel free to PM me if you'd like any further input.

@LondonMum20222. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and it’s really helpful!

Our DD just got an offer for cello and piano at RCM JD starting Sept. Does anyone know how much parents stick around? DD will be 9 when she starts so guessing some of the younger ones need a bit of help navigating/ carrying kit etc. Look forward to meeting some of you there perhaps.

Congratulations to the offer holders!

May I ask, does anyone have a DC at Junior RNCM? We are rather surprised that both DC received offers yesterday. The elder DC is quite serious about music, and pretty stoical about moving from being one of the better kids at youth orchestra to middle of the pack. However I suspect the younger DC only auditioned because of FOMO (and her favourite bubble tea shop being over the road) and I worry about her being overwhelmed. Just wondered if anyone can shed any light on how gently they ease them in?

DD8 has been offered places at junior guildhall and rcmjd and we have to choose between them. She is first study violin. We are going to try teacher consultations at both. Does anyone know what time the days start and end at the departments for the younger children like herself? We were told before application that she would be mostly working with teenagers at guildhall. Does anyone know whether this is the case and would there be more children of a similar age (she will be year 4) at rcm?

@squirrelofsw19 Congrats to your DD! When we visited after DD got an offer last year, we were told parents could stay in the cafe, but weren't allowed through the doors to the actual teaching areas (so they would have to lug everything around themselves). And we were told parents were discouraged from ever sitting in on instrumental lessons (which we found a bit odd - occasionally it's useful to sit in to see what they're doing so you can help with practice). I'd check with Miranda if all that's still the case.

@butternut1 Congrats! I've posted above about our decision between the JDs, so have a read of that for our reasonings.

Re timings: both RCM and Guildhall have an official day of 8am-6pm. You can request an earlier / later start or ending time, though in reality most of the teaching - orchestras, choir, musicianship, chamber music - are fixed times so it's only really the instrumental lesson(s) that can change.

At Guildhall, most of the younger ones do c.9am - 3pm (a bit longer if they're doing a second study instrument too).

At both RCM and Guildhall there will be only a small number of Year 4 and 5s. I asked about this a lot before making our decision, and it was roughly the same at both - about eight-to-ten children across those two school years.

At RCM, the "orchestra" experience until secondary school is actually more chamber music - they work with 12 children of a similar age (ie primary school age).

At Guildhall, the orchestra for the younger ones is all the string players aged 8-13 (about 35 of them) so it's true that your DD would be working with teens. But it's a fuller orchestra experience. That's true of choir and chamber music too (it's with 8-13 year olds). But my DC loves that, and there are some lovely friendships amongst children of quite different ages.

(I presume the RCM choir is also with teens, but you'd need to check).

At both RCM and Guildhall, musicianship classes are taken only with children the same age.

We were a bit nervous at first that DC might get a bit "lost" amongst the older ones at Guildhall, but it's such a relaxed, friendly atmosphere that actually they love it, and has friends three of four years older as well as their own age.

But I do think, in the end, it just comes down to a gut feeling about which will best suit your child. Are you able to attend post-offer Open Days at both? I know the Guildhall one is the first week back after Easter - I think that's the best way to get a feel for the JDs. They're all fantastic, so it's just personal choice in the end. We were highly swayed by the instrumental teachers at Guildhall after the consultation lessons (we did two consultation lessons at both Guildhall and RCM and they were really the deciding factor for us - DC loved both Guildhall teachers, but wasn't so keen on either RCM teacher. Given that's their primary relationship, I would definitely be guided by that too).

Good luck with the decision-making!

I thought I’d add my thoughts and experiences and hope it’s helpful. I’d agree that it’s very personal. Having had two kids at various times at primary academy at ram I would say it was fantastic. It’s true it is a shorter day but that suits younger kids and those in the first year of secondary school especially with settling into homework routines, plus many kids will be working for 11+ during year 5 and year 6 so to be left with only Sunday for work at the weekend would be very stressful. There is a fast pace which is created by short sessions and an energetic atmosphere. It works really well. It’s very nurturing plus which all the teachers are absolutely fantastic.

It’s very sweet and feels very safe to have the younger kids together; when they become teenagers/just before then it’s time to swim in the bigger pond. Yes the kids do have to audition again but it’s not such a big deal, most likely they will get a place somewhere and they’ll know tons of kids at all of the junior departments anyway through their music related activities. I would say the benefits of PA definitely outweighs having to reaudition. Last year there were some who didn’t get to stay but they all got places somewhere else and are happy and settled there. In terms of the building, it’s beautiful as is rcm but ram is smaller. Less navigating around and the intake is smaller as the building accommodates less kids. This means it’s a very familial environment where they all know each other. Ultimately they are all fantastic and offer first class musical education. The same kids who attend the JDs also do the various holiday courses so they all end up making friends and playing music together.

Thanks @LondonMum20222
All really useful to know. Will check with Miranda.

I think the restrictions in RCM are to do with present covid situation?When my son was young a few years ago parents were free to move around the building. I always watched the orchestras rehearse and waited outside lessons to chat with teachers. Was permitted to sit in on lessons if I wanted to as well. Also was able to enjoy the choir rehearsals. There is a small group of 8-10 year olds who train in orchestral playing. Then there is a junior strings orchestra aged 10-13, then 2 more levels of orchestra. It is a brilliant learning environment in the RCMJD and I found everyone very welcoming and supportive. I found the Guildhall to be a little small, not much room for parents to relax-one of the main reasons we chose RCMJD. Didn’t pick Primary academy at RAM as felt day was too short in comparison to Rcm day. Enjoy the experience!!

Many thanks @Maryward. We are leaning towards rcm. Is there a necessity to reaudition as there is for ram? We are choosing between rcm and junior guildhall and she will be 8 when she starts.