Is it very bad to pressure DD to take up a brass instrument?

[BarneyBoots]

Dd is a pretty handy Grade 4 piano, and joining a girls secondary school next year with a good reputation for music. New school have written to ask if we want to arrange any lessons - and it's crystalised a long conversation about how it would be a good time to take up an 'ensemble' instrument.

Dd opening gambit: cello. I veto based on too heavy to carry 30 mins to school every day. Plus DS2 plays cello - and I think it would upstage him.

Gambit 2: violin or flute. I'm negative about these too - on the basis that there will be squillions of horribly squeaky violins and flutes at an all-girls school - and that DD would be 'behind' people that had played them for years.

Gambit 3: Clarinet. I am less rabidly negative - but it is DS1s instrument (it does seem rude to upstage - though DS1 is a more robust character than DS2). Also the issue of likely over-supply @ school. And a wider accusation of failure of imagination - on the basis that her reasoning is "XXX plays it & sounds nice" .

DH is projecting his thwarted ambitions onto his daughter strongly pro drum lessons. DD is open to that - but she wonders if she is too shy to be an effective drummer (and I'm inclined to agree. Plus rhythm is the weakest part of her piano playing).

but agree with others, if she doesn't want to play it it's the be way to down her confidence in music to force her.

does a music school near you do a rotation program? where she can try a few different instruments for a couple of months?

I'm in the let her choose camp. I don't get why this is such a big deal. It should be enjoyable to learn an instrument! I accept transportation might be an issue but surely not every day? The pints you make about overshadowing other children and what you or your husband want would be irrelevant for me. If she fancies the cello and can already pick out a tune, let her go for it.

Op Im with on the need to play an ensemble instrument. If she's musically able then brass has a good effort to reward ratio at early standards - that is you can get going prettty quickly, except possibly French horn ( which has the niche status of course but us v heavy and v expensive ). She would be hugely popular and swiftly snapped up by bands / orchestras/ swing bands if she could play even a little tuba - they way to do this is to use a school instrument that is left at school!

BUT be aware she may just love piano ! Some kids are solo players. Dd1 is, she's a 1st instrument recorder player ( and singer so I guess has a sociable " instrument") . We pushed her to have an ensemble instrument, so she played clarinet but gave it to dd2 on leaving school, and shook the dust off her heels ! She did sort of enjoy it , but there were way too many players about and she wasn't motivated to fight for the orchestral one to a part places.

I understand about not wanting to step on the toes of your other kids ( are they younger?). Here the age gap was big enough that, though dd2 is clearly a better clarinetist than dd1 at her age now she never " caught up".

Can she play bass style instruments? E.g. bass clarinet, tenor or bass sax? Admittedly they are bigger but they are always in demand, and she can read bass cleft already.

I played recorders, added in clarinet and piano, then sax for fun as its a mix of clarinet and recorders. As I got older at school I moved to the bass line instruments for a bit of fun and something different. Playing in ensembles was a big part of my childhood and I get why you think its important. The real question is does she want to play the melodies in a piece or will she be happy being a more in demand bass line instrument?

Does she realise that in a lot of cases, unless its a solo part, the bigger instruments tend to be rather dull to play in a group? Unless you get pleasure from pinning the whole piece together, she may get bored playing the cello in a large string group.

I was a pianist only at school, and virtually all other musicians played an orchestral instrument. I never had any desire to. I loved playing percussion in orchestra throughout secondary school - school like piano-only players as you need the keyboard skills for glock/xylophone, and useful to be able to follow the score, and no pressure from child/parents that they must be playing their orchestral instrument.

I get the ensemble instrument too, and I also get the cello dilemma too. In my case it is DS2 who will overtake his older sibling, he did with piano but luckily hasn't yet with trombone.

What kind of groups are available at the school?

My DD plays alto sax, BUT plays bari sax in the school groups and music service groups. So no guarantee it stays small. DS1 also doubles on tuba.

Both stay at school generally but need transporting to concerts, which is a pain.

Trombone is very, very cool though. Biased with 2 trombone players here.

I don't entirely subscribe to the romanticisation of 'let her choose'.

1. her enthusiasm for an instrument is directly in proportion to how many peers she's heard play that instrument. I think that says nothing about what she'd enjoy playing - just about which instrumental teachers frequent her primary.

2. there is a lag of at least a year between starting an instrument and joining an orchestra. Probably two years on strings at secondary school. Waiting until she makes a definite choice will probably mean that it'll be left too late - and then GCSEs and stuff will intrude - and the sum total will be that she won't really have an opportunity to play in an orchestra.

3. as child-centred as I might be in letting her take the lead - she will have to fit in with the organisation of the school/ other DC.

She thinks that piano is a total instrument - Tchaikovsky 1st has a piano in an orchestra! But ( singingbear 's interesting experience aside) - IME that's not how school orchestras work. Yes - piano plays in a jazz band - but again I'm not sure it would work that way in a school.

Violin is all very nice - but starting at 11 as a second instrument - playing in a very musical school - she'll probably never get to playing first bench - and will always feel like she's lagging behind the girls who've been playing since KS1. I don't think that will boost her confidence - even if it was initially her 'choice' of instrument.

I don't think as she becomes an older teen she'll care so much about not being the very best violinist.
Let her try lots of instruments and hear a lot before she makes her decision.
She shouldn't have to fit in with her siblings by not playing an instrument. You shouldn't be encouraging this possessive behaviour in her brothers.

It's not about possessiveness. She's 4 school years ahead of DS2 & 3 school years ahead of DS1. She'd pick up an instrument quicker than they would - and with DS2 in particular it would undermine his efforts to achieve competence.

And it's not that these are her favourite and best instruments. She suggested them - by her own admission - because her sibs play & she kind of knows what those instruments are about. So it's not so much that she's stopped from playing her chosen instrument from her siblings - rather that she's being discouraged from copying her siblings for the sake of it.

School offers:

Choir * 2
String quartet * (several - split by year groups)
Wind band
Flute band
Chamber orchestra
Rock group
Orchestra * 3
Cello quartet
Big Band
Concert band
Guitar club

Yes to tuned perc rather than drums - lots of pianists go that way.

I wouldn't discount violin/viola - the benefit is that orchestras need a lot of them (and not everyone aspires to being "the best", especially if it's their second instrument.

There is a book called "choosing the right instrument for your child". I've got a copy somewhere....

Are we dismissing Double Bass too quick?

The double bass players on this thread seem happy.

And while its big, there's no question of carrying it to school.

Presumably quite a short learning curve before you get a seat in the band...?

Ok so the most important thing is that she wants to learn the instrument.

Personally I think sax would be a shame in that it mostly counts you out of traditional full orchestras.

Strings are generally better in terms of the numbers which are needed in orchestras as opposed to woodwind or brass and can always start violin and change to viola later to be a bit different.

Lower strings - definitely with double bass (not boring at all, always in demand and can do classical or jazz and automatically play electric bass too) and possibly cello, school will have an instrument she can use there so no need to lug one round.

fwiw
I play trumpet and at school would play 'french horn' on a bugel in the wind ensemble, trumpet in the big band and 'french horn' (again kn bugle) in the orchestra. plus various other small ensembles.

tbh go play piano in a band you need to be >really really good and rhythm is very important.

Dd1 has progressed very quickly on the double bass ( after 3 years playing grade 6 pieces) having played the piano for 3 years before.Double bass is in great demand ( orchestra and concert band plus strings ensemble).She's not especially girly and it suits her.The only disadvantage is school provides a Bass for concerts and orchestras and one at home ( very kindly).Also being petite she needs the right height stool.

Why can't she play piano in the big band if you really must insist she joins a group?

Otherwise, if she wants to learn a second instrument please let her choose.
Would you like someone to come along and tell YOU what job to do?

Music should be fun. She should enjoy doing it. Try to support and enthuse her rather than dictate to her.

We went for compromise when DCs chose their instruments, though wind instruments were not offered when they started. They both wanted to do violin which I vetoed on the years of squeaking/too common arguments. I wanted them both to do trumpet as I second the not too common/very versatile opinion, but they refused. I ended up with one cello and one horn; the horn is very happy, the cello still says he would have preferred the violin (many children's concerts later, I think I made the right call there). I do not drive, which has never been a problem with the cello but it has never been more than a 15 minute walk to school or bus stop (neither school has had a spare cello). A friend at school played double bass and getting it around was a pain but we survived. I played the clarinet (entirely because a relative was upgrading theirs), never loved it and there were 16 in my year in year 7, which made getting into ensembles tricky, so I have always been anti the more common instruments but I am considering letting the horn take it up as a second instrument as it seems less popular than 30 years ago. I moved to the sax and played that for years but would not want to be without a proper orchestral instrument. The cello has taken up the oboe as a second instrument and is enjoying that. Having said which, having ended up with three fairly hard instruments, none of which you can play in a jazz band, and not exceptionally musical DCs, I do sometimes think that I would recommend the clarinet or flute to anyone with a free choice.

I'd go for viola if she likes cello and violin and you want something with rarity value. Or double bass which is awesome, apart from the transport issues.

I'd opt for something orchestral rather than sax, but I would also let my child choose, because my own dc have been far more motivated on their second and third instruments which they chose than on their first which I chose for them.

Flautists must be girly and elegant don't you know?

OP - does it matter how 'quickly she gets a seat in a band'?

She just .... doesn't 'fit' the flute.

Alibaba - the purpose of the second instrument is to get ensemble playing opportunities. The instrument she really wants to play is piano.

Ensemble playing is generally a good thing IMO - whether or not you're in love with your instrument. She is also very shy & tends to solo occupations (piano, reading, computer games, drawing) - so I think it is of wider benefit to shepherd her towards opportunities to make social links with like-minded DC.

Big bands have piano in them.

That's what DD says . And apparently so do symphony orchestras.

However - she's unlikely to be the best pianist in the school - and I think the opportunities will be slim (and starting from a fairly small repertoire in the first place).

A second instrument seems like a very easy door to open atm. She can always drop it of she's fed up, but realistically she's unlikely to take one up once she discovers boys and makeup beyond a certain point.