What do you eat before a run if you don't eat 'carbs'?

[actiongirl1978]

I have been running for just over two years but it has always just been for fun. However I have decided to get a bit more serious, have extended my distances and am cross training with weights and pilates.

Since I started running I have largely eaten a diet which doesn't include grains or potatoes (it works for me, the reintroduction of grains gives me stomach ache) though I always eat all fruit etc. My normal breakfast is a couple of handfuls of cashew nuts plus sometimes a small banana and decaf coffee.

I have generally run empty straight out of bed but I am now running later in the day due to a house move which means we now haven no streetlights! So my question is what do you eat for fuel if you are not running first thing in the morning?

I ran my first 10k on Sunday - the race started at ten am and so at 6.30am I had my cashews and banana. But I felt that my energy levels fell sharply at about 7k and I wonder if I could eat differently and get a better result. My time was 61mins so pretty much bang on my training pace, but I did feel like I was totally knackered!

I think I have mixed up several questions here, but essentially I want to know what do you eat and what could I or should I eat differently for better results?

Thanks!

I think 10 miles is about my max, can only find one recorded fasted run further than that of about 13 miles and I remember heavy legs, almost cramp-like pain in every muscle and I was really slow. It just wasn't nice, but have seen in others (well one other) that you can condition yourself until it's possible to run extraordinary distances (beyond marathon) on v little fuel if any.

but I suspect it's a lot to do with how well you eat the rest of the time, if you are generally getting the protein etc to recover from runs as a matter of course you must be in better shape and ping back faster than someone who isn't eating enough to support the running

I eat granola made with coconut oil, honey, small amount of oats, sunflower seeds, almonds, sesame seeds and chia seeds served with apple or banana and yoghurt. And a coffee. Keeps me going. I never want to eat after and generally I find that running puts me off food for hours after. I have run several half marathons this year and my average run is 6 miles. This brekkie has worked for me but friends who run too swear by porridge and nothing else.

I know that endurance training leads to an upregulation of glycogen storage capacity, to what extent I'm not sure but I'm interested and will do some research when I get back from today's exertions

Yes mitchy, it's just the long, slow run (LSR) which should be slower than race pace. And absolutely, fuelling is a long-term consideration, as is rest and sleep.

christian, there are lots of benefits to the LSR. Your muscles get better at producing energy, it's a better fat burning pace, different benefits to your heart than tempo or speed sessions - basically it's about mixing your training up to get the most out of what you're doing and also to minimise injury and stop you getting bored (or reaching a plateau) with the same old pace and same old routes.

Bonkers, I didn't know that. My two years of running has until recently been literally getting up, putting on running gear, out the door for fresh air and running. It is only really since the end of the summer that I have ever given any thought to pace, training, planning and fuel, I am learning so much from this thread.

I think my general pace is pretty slow already though at 6 mins a km, are you suggesting slowing it further for one run a week and then running normally for other runs?

Sadly rest and sleep is not my four year olds top priority so I will have to focus on the fuel and technique for now...

Isn't it more about the time that you've been running than the distance in terms of your muscles using us glycogen?

I remember reading that at about 1 hrs 30 mins of running (despite the pace or distance covered) the glycogen in muscles is running out and the body needs to convert fats for energy?

I definitely noticed this sudden feeling of tiredness, especially the first few times I did over 10m.

Mitchy - to answer your questions:

• I am doing this to try to see if I can train my body to burn a much greater % of fat (rather than virtually all carbs) when racing. So I would still eventually add some carbs too, but would need maybe 1/4 or 1/5 as much as someone who needed all carbs. And yes, for long races, so for the marathon and half ironman.
• I feel perfectly well and happy. I do have pangs where I long for something super-sweet though….I figure they might recede after a bit. One of the reasons I wanted to do it is that I have a sweet tooth and a tendency to binge. I don't lack energy, don't get that post-sugar slump, and my skin is better than it has been in a while (since I last did strict-ish low carbing, albeit not this strict).
• Once my body is adapted I would envisage being able to add some carbs for long runs. But right now it would be counter-productive. The last long run I did was a half marathon the day before I started this - porridge beforehand, energy gel immediately beforehand, another energy gel at 15km. I'll do a long(isn) run at the weekend, with some protein and a bit of fat before, and let you know how it goes. I'm assuming I'll be at the slow end of my long run pace, and not going all that far either - aiming for 14-15km or so (partly as I had two weeks off, so only just getting back into it).

What Bonkers said about long slow runs. The other reason is so that you don't over-tire yourself on your long run and thus train too knackered for your other runs too. If you want to get faster at least one of your other runs should include some speed stuff - e.g. intervals above your normal race pace. So for a half marathon your training might be something like:

Tuesday - tempo run 10km at v close to HM race pace
Thursday - interval session e.g. warm-up, 2 mins just above 5k pace, 1 min slow jog recovery x10, cool-down.
Saturday - speed session - 5k parkrun at 5k race pace (i.e. faster than HM pace)
Sunday - long run at 10-20% below HM race pace

Apparently the mistake most people make is doing their long run too fast and their shorter runs too slow.

The pace thing makes a big difference. My longest training run was 18.5k, although I had a day where I did 10.5k in the morning and 15k in the afternoon too. All at 10-20% below race pace and I didn't ache after those runs. On the day I pushed the pace hard all the way and it was 3 days before I could walk down a flight of stairs properly without clinging to the banister and grimacing in pain. If I'd done long training runs at that pace it'd be nearly a week before I was up for an interval session.

Pootle, that is really clear thank you. I am going to start working these things out in advance from now on.

Evilempororzurg, do you have milk with your granola? Presume you homemake and bake it?

Isn't it more about the time that you've been running than the distance in terms of your muscles using us glycogen

it's both, fuel consumption per distance or per time increases as running speed increases

Running for an hour at 6mph will use more energy than running for the same distance at a slower speed.

running 5 miles at a speed of 6mph will use more energy than running the same distance at a slower speed.

This calculator will give a rough idea www.exrx.net/Calculators/WalkRunMETs.html

this study compares endurance exercise in the fasted vs fed state

jap.physiology.org/content/110/1/236

amoungst other things it mentions that eating before training inhibits fat breakdown during training

the study concludes that fasted training:

-markedly stimulates the contribution of intramyocellular lipid (ie fat) to energy provision during fasting endurance exercise.

-increases muscular oxidative capacity more than a similar intensity and duration of exercise with ample exogenous carbohydrate supply.

• prevents drop of blood glucose concentration during fasting exercise. (the liver gets more better at regulating blood sugar levels)

• is a useful strategy to stimulate physiological adaptations in muscle that may eventually contribute to improved endurance exercise performance.

action girl no milk - just yoghurt & fruit. I do bake it and store it in a jar - it lasts ages. It's a simple recipe: 400g of nuts/seeds/whatever to 200g honey (which is heated gently with a couple of teaspoons of coconut oil. Then baked in a roasting tin stirring every so often til it is all uniformly brown. It sticks together as it cools but stirring once its cool breaks it up.

thanks pootle and everyone, this is a really interesting thread!

the fat oxidisation thing I think is usually offset by how much harder and faster you can run for longer and more often with carbs - so a greater volume of more quality training is available when you are appropriately nourished, thus more fat burned more easily

not that am arguing with the longer term benefits of the starving yourself approach, have been partial to it myself in the past, but on my current eat fucking continuously regime am finding it all fairly effortless which is great (having had so many troubles)

I'm not advocating starving yourself, or even eating fewer calories than are expended, more looking at fewer small meals spaced evenly vs larger meals but scheduled to allow a period of time with no food such that exercise in a fasted state is possible.

I suppose it's the 16:8 protocol really

Of course whatever works best for each of us trumps all scientific papers :o

I'm a bit surprised at how many people are routinely and happily running 8 or 10 miles on just a cup of tea!

or my friend who took my Garmin round the London marathon last year on water alone

I think I might experiment a bit once the next couple of races are run

I guess some fasted training would help race performance but for the actual race you'd be looking at fueling for best performance?

It's all a closed book to me as I don't seem to have the right genetics for any kind of competition!

Totally non-scientific test this morning:

I did 45 minutes on the watt bike in the gym, which was mainly tough interval training. This was followed by 1900m in the pool. I didn't eat until afterwards. The interval stuff was tough (maybe partly because that workout IS tough, even when I ate more carbs, and also because of a lack of bike fitness) but I felt really worn out and dreaded each and every one of the 16 one-minute sprints. Whereas after 10 minutes rest, once I was in the pool I felt like I could swim for miles….I got out due to DH needing to go to work so me needing to be with the kids, rather than because I'd had enough. I was swimming at a good but not sprinting pace…..which fits with the fat-burning-for-lower-effort-but-add-carbs-for-all-out idea.

Long run tomorrow so will see how that goes.

hmm, swimming uses mostly upper body musculature so you'd have intramuscular glycogen stores to fuel the swimming because the bike stuff wouldnt have touched them?

As for switching activities and getting a 'second wind' I get that all the time:o

In the interests of science I think we need you to do the exact same workout but in a fed rather than fasted state and then report back