What do you eat before a run if you don't eat 'carbs'?

[actiongirl1978]

I have been running for just over two years but it has always just been for fun. However I have decided to get a bit more serious, have extended my distances and am cross training with weights and pilates.

Since I started running I have largely eaten a diet which doesn't include grains or potatoes (it works for me, the reintroduction of grains gives me stomach ache) though I always eat all fruit etc. My normal breakfast is a couple of handfuls of cashew nuts plus sometimes a small banana and decaf coffee.

I have generally run empty straight out of bed but I am now running later in the day due to a house move which means we now haven no streetlights! So my question is what do you eat for fuel if you are not running first thing in the morning?

I ran my first 10k on Sunday - the race started at ten am and so at 6.30am I had my cashews and banana. But I felt that my energy levels fell sharply at about 7k and I wonder if I could eat differently and get a better result. My time was 61mins so pretty much bang on my training pace, but I did feel like I was totally knackered!

I think I have mixed up several questions here, but essentially I want to know what do you eat and what could I or should I eat differently for better results?

Thanks!

I can't run for more than about an hour and a half in a fasted state, I only know one runner who regularly does (in fact he did the entire VMLM in a fasted state last year, obviously didn't get a PB).

There is a massive difference in my pace (a whole minute per mile or more) and energy and the ease of it all when I've had porridge or at least a banana (they are super carby) and when I'm running on empty. I don't 'carb load' the night before but I might for races and long runs.

You've been running for two years, what sort of volume/weekly mileage?

hmm, I carb load every night
maybe thats why I can run on empty for several hours the next day!

you told me you never run for more than 5 miles !

OP you need to experiment and see what works, running in a fasted state does help to burn fat and increase your endurance and tolerance and so on BUT it slows you down and it is longer, harder work. Good if you want to do stupidly long distances in the future. If, however, you have the fuel on board you can work harder and faster and burn fat in a shorter time (not easy, aerobic miles but threshold runs or intervals or hill repeats or whatever). I guess you have to decide do you want to run and accept gradual inevitable fat loss as your distance/training volume increases (which must be fueled properly) or do you want to run to lose weight?

Absolutely 'if really needed' Talkin, but possibly that is more of an effort for some people's bodies than others and so impacts upon performance and fatigue levels. The majority of endurance athletes find that they need carbs the night before and some form of sugar after about 1-1.5hrs to maintain their pace. Its likely that only those habitually eating a truly low carb diet over a fairly long term basis will be so well adapted to fat burning that they don't feel a dip - that's my admittedly anecdotal experience anyway.

The other thing I'd add about attempting endurance sports without carbs is that you are going to burn muscle as well as fat, which is not usually desirable. If you are looking for fat burning above all else, then do HIIT in a fasted state, much more efficient.

runners world: should you run in a fasted state?

Mitchy - I generally run 15 - 20km a week over a few runs, and at the moment I want to run for results not weight loss. I am pretty happy with my weight, the cross training and pilates are helping with toning up so now I have decided to think about running as opposed to simply using it as an aid for relaxtion and just running for the fresh air I suppose I wondered if I should be doing things differently.

Suzanne - in the dim and distant past when pasta was part of my life, I did notice that running was easier and faster the next morning even without breakfast!

I wonder if maybe I don't do the low carb thing entirely whether I am caught between the super efficient energy processing of being in ketosis and having a body able to respond to that, and on the other hand the carb loading scenario where dinner 12 hrs before a run which is high in carbs enables a more efficient run.

Experiment Actiongirl, maybe train in a fasted state for weights etc but have something before a longer run (either more substantial than banana and nuts or eat a bit closer to when you start-6.30-10am is quite a long gap). And there will be an element of what Talkin said about getting stronger - you shouldn't actually need a meal 'high' in carbs for less than an hour's running, beyond that you may well feel better for it though.

Actiongirl - That's one of the reasons I have swapped to trying out low carb to ketosis, so as to try and get the benefits that I was missing before as I felt stuck in the middle. That said, focussing the timing of your carbs (before, during, and immediately after big sessions/races) also seems to be what many paleo athletes do - so it's not necessarily a question of cutting carbs, but maybe being more specific about when you need them.

So much to consider but you guys have all been super helpful thank you so much! Going to run tomorrow and weights Friday so will try them both out, maybe give it a week and report back ( Sod's law is that half term starts next Thursday and my training schedule will go completely screwed for a week)

well when I said 'run' I meant keep going generally Mitchy, given the subject of the thread it was a badly chosen phrase

when pasta was part of my life, I did notice that running was easier and faster the next morning even without breakfast!

from what I can remember that ties in with what Peter Aittia says in his blog, ie that his performance wasnt quite as good with a very low carb diet, but maybe it's a question of adapting to being in ketosis?

What Peter Aittia says (and I'm totally paraphrasing) is that hard, sustained endurance exercise - i.e. racing as fast as you can, not a long jog, is less good with just low carb, even when adapted. However, he also says that when low-carb adapted, you can add some carbs (way less than the amount needed by a carb-burning person), and still burn mainly fat, thus keeping the efficiency.

will be really interesting to see if you feel/record a difference actiongirl between your fasted and non fasted runs in terms of effort and pace, please keep us posted!

after my next half I might experiment with it again but at the moment I need the confidence boost

suzanne, I don't think runners adapt in the sense that they will ever be as fast when fasted as when they are carbed up, it's the ultimate performance enhancer isn't. I am glad I don't get drug tested for my porridge!

I was kinda persuaded by him, but then I've read other authors who've also influenced my thinking and eating
Here's a couple more blogs that I've found interesting
wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/
www.unamericandiet.com/

:o @ the idea of porridge as a banned substance

isn't there a well known cyclist who swears by bread and jam as a performance enhancer?

and I don't mean as a viagra substitute

Beet root juice is meant to be the ultimate carb performance enhancer (crashing right into the thread and rolling out before potatoes get hurled at me! )

beet-it sponsor my running club, they're local, so we get lots of amazing goodies from them

haven't tried the shots or energy bars yet but have guzzled lots of juice

Ben Greenfield is always going on about it I'm sure, he's entertaining but some of his stuff is a bit 'new age'

2.5 weeks in to sub-50g of carbs per day I'm definitely not adapted yet - 8km-ish mid-paced run this morning (my Garmin was running out of battery so no details) but the last km or so I was definitely wobbly-legged - and I only dropped 3-5%pace-wise in the latter stages of a half marathon 4 weeks ago pre low-carbing.

For me, my next big race is April 2015 (marathon) and then a half Ironman next June, with a hopeful idea of Ironman the year after, so I have a while to muck about with a few weeks more training being crap and trying to make things work re low-carb adaptability. I'm still relatively early into this journey so happy to see how things go.

wow, how do you get so few carbs? just checked mfp and I average 170g a day on a diet of porridge, spinach omelette and loads of veg (and yoghurt, milk is a way of committing carbicide) - might very occasionally go fucking mental and eat some quinoa

please tell me what you eat!

Mitchy - at the idea of going mental and eating some quinoa... I occasionally treat myself to two spoonfuls of brown rice, I like to think of it as cheat night!

I didn't realise milk was that Carby though, I currently have a bag of almonds soaking for almond milk, maybe that will help wean me off it.

I have flirted with low carb (clean eating principles) but found it just didnt work for me, possibly because I tend to run longer distances (c.15-18km) and over technical trails, which is significantly more energy intensive than tarmac. If I'm lifting, doing HIT cardio or running, say, 7 miles on a treadmill, I can do that fasted, but anything over 10 miles in trail training, or a race of any length and I eat carbs. I think you just need to work out what works for you given your training objectives. My understanding is that it is difficult to effectively max out your glycogen stores without carbs, and glycogen and easily absorbed carbs (gels etc) are better than fat stores as a source of energy. Obviously if you're running to lose weight, then that isnt the best strategy, but if you're running to max your performance, then it might be.