Brexit

[PerkyLady]

Hello.
Maybe some of you will consider this a fresh topic, but I'm interested in it nevertheless.
Did you vote for or against Brexit?
And what were your reasons?
Stay well.

Brexit is more relevant than ever because people need reminding that Nigel Farage is the cause of Brexit ultimately. The man cannot be trusted with our country. Unfortunately, yet again the old and less educated will be falling for his lies. And they will suffer the most harm ultimately. So absolutely, Brexit is as current as ever.

I think this sums up well why many voted to leave. It was ideological, not economic.

Many remainers have repeatedly failed to understand what drove the vote, blinkered by their own condescension.

I voted to remain, but this is tedious and people need to move forwards.

Governing ourselves does not appear to be going so well. Having to previously implement directly applicable EU laws seems to have kept things here professional and simple. It all turned into a massive shitshow post Brexit, complete political chaos. Not just economic chaos.

@excusezmoi

I voted to remain, but this is tedious and people need to move forwards.

I would agree. The past is not going to be changed.

None of the main parties are pushing for the UK to trigger article 49 and make an application to join the EU.

I name this thread the condescension ship.
May God bless all those who sail in her.

So you don't trust polls ?

Do you apply this to all polls, or just Brexit polls ?

Or could you just not find a poll from a reputable organisation that does not show negative data re Brexit ?

@IsEveryUserNameBloodyTaken

I name this thread the condescension ship.

Excellent choice of words. From the Cambridge dictionary:

CONDESCENSION

behaviour that shows you think you are more important or more intelligent than other people

May God bless all those who sail in her.

Me too. I would be happy to help people who prefer EU to UK to get into a small boat and sail to Calais. It would be economical as they could use the boats and equipment that arrivals have left behind.

Once there, they could claim asylum on the basis they are being persecuted by people who object to being told they are:

racist
thick
stupid
ignorant
not allowed to vote differently

Cool. The old " if you don't like it here then piss off" argument.

Problem is of course, the polls do say that it is a majority who think Brexit was bad for the UK.

But you don't believe polls. Well, not polls on Brexit anyway. Makes we wonder how you would estimate how much boat capacity you would need.

Well I would rather be whisked away on a ship to better shores than stuck on the Brexit bus lie millions to the NHS forever.

We all know a lot of people did not bother voting in the referendum at all, the political class was completely taken aback by the outcome of the referendum and the whole thing was based on lies. And plenty of people are really angry about it, especially the younger generation. Because it stole their future.

@Araminta1003

The turnout in the 2016 referendum became irrelevant after the outcome of the Gina Miller case.

Contrary to what David Cameron thought when he sent the remain booklet to all UK households, the government did not have the authority to trigger article 50. It had to be been done by an act of parliament.

The vote in HOC took place 29 March 2017. The outcome was 498 votes to leave and 114 to remain. A large majority I would say.

@RedTagAlan

Cool. The old " if you don't like it here then piss off" argument.

No such statement was made. I stated that I would help someone who preferred the EU to UK to get on a boat and sail to Calais. It appears the poster Araminta is such a person.

Regards polls based in small samples, I don’t think they are accurate. From 2013 to 2016 polls forecast a remain vote if there was a referendum. If polls that had a difference of 4% less were l ignored, the polls were even more in favour of a remain result.

I think most Remainers understand that much of the Leave vote was ideological. So ideological that they were blinkered to reality.

The reality that they would be shafted too.

Is it not rather astounding that someone with so much knowledge about the subject can't name one universal benefit.

You said this above: "Regards polls based in small samples,...."

What sample size is ok for you ?

How about if I add up all the different polls, collate all the sample size information, would you say still too small?

Actually, let me ask again. Can you find a poll that says Brexit was positive ?

Yeah. It's odd for someone that is able to punch out so many detailed posts that they completely and utterly stall at producing one single universal benefit.

It's like the Newsnight Paxman-Micheal Howard interview.

@RedTagAlan

Is it not rather astounding that someone with so much knowledge about the subject can't name one universal benefit.

Nobody can produce a universal benefit as people will have different opinions about what is good or bad for themselves. It’s why general elections are held at least once every 5 years.

As for polls that support Brexit, I would refer to the three general elections since the HOC vote held 29 March 2017. All were won by parties who were pro Brexit.

The 2019 general election was the most significant of the three. Watch the 5 September 2019 episode of BBC Question Time where the major parties laid out their Brexit policy:

Liberal Democrats

Layla Moran stated that if her party won article 50 would be revoked. A very clear statement I would say. They didn’t win the election and received fewer votes than in 2017.

Brexit Party

Richard Tice said they support Brexit. However, they did not contest the election.

Labour

Emily Thornberry stated the Labour Party policy was to have a second referendum which included the option to remain. Labour got their worst result in 84 years.

Conservative Party

They said they would get Brexit over the line. They won.

SNP

They were against Brexit.

So, what was in the manifestos of the parties that were against Brexit did the voters think were worse than Brexit?

If in 2019, Labour had put forward a strong centrist credible leader and then formed a coalition with the Lib Dems, Brexit would likely have never happened. The Labour Party being led by Corbyn made the party unelectable at the time. This has nothing to do with what the population as a whole may have wanted at that point. It is clear the younger generation would not have voted for Brexit. The MPs who passed it in Parliament did so because they were too scared of a backlash of ignoring an advisory referendum.

Hypothetically, if Wes Streeting at his current age had been the leader of Labour in 2019 I really do not think Brexit would have happened. The Labour Party was simply shambolic at the time and that is why they were not elected. People as a whole do not vote for Momentum types, it is considered too extreme. People as a whole are largely in the centre and favour reasonable economic policies above all else. It is only since this referendum where divisions have been created that people have started moving from what is a more normal centre ground, but even then they are shifting slightly left or slightly right and there is no real loyalty to any parties anymore, for most people. Hence why we do get different parties winning. Hence why even Nigel Farage knows he won’t win if he does not come across as sensible and gets the right people joining him first who already have real credibility.

@Araminta1003

If in 2019, Labour had put forward a strong centrist credible leader and then formed a coalition with the Lib Dems, Brexit would likely have never happened.

But they didn’t and UK left the EU in 2020. Time moves forward only. So, to talk about ifs that could have happened 6 years ago doesn’t make sense.

This has nothing to do with what the population as a whole may have wanted at that point.

Pure speculation. Unless you know what the entire population wanted in 2019.

The MPs who passed it in Parliament did so because they were too scared of a backlash of ignoring an advisory referendum.

So, why did so many MPs fight to overturn Brexit between the 2017 and 2019 general elections?

Good god it was nearly 10 years ago
Get over it
Germany and France are economic basket cases with he same cost of living issues we have

you go first op

@Araminta1003

Hypothetically, if Wes Streeting at his current age had been the leader of Labour in 2019 I really do not think Brexit would have happened.

But, he wasn’t the Labour leader.

It is only since this referendum where divisions have been created that people have started moving from what is a more normal centre ground.

The same is happening in the EU and they didn’t not have a referendum.

Well it is really easy to use social media and agitators to manipulate the population, especially those without a university degree and those not satisfied or lonely, or not in full time work. That applies to France, Germany and UK as well. The less educated persons who have not studied manipulation and autocracy and history in depth, and plenty of pensioners are online and do not get how manipulative the algorithms are. That is where we are at. The only hope is that the young who are educated show up to vote in the next election and actually bother to go for the least worst option. We have 3DC who will be able to vote. Their demographic will not under any circumstances be voting for a right leaning government. What is important now is that they understand to connect with their own networks online, and networks they do all have, and a wide one as such.

@Araminta1003

especially those without a university degree and those not satisfied or lonely, or not in full time work

I would trust a central heating engineer to more clever than someone who has a degree in media and film. So, your sweeping statement that a university degree guarantees a higher level of intelligence/logic/critical thinking, etc., does not hold.

Self employed tradesmen are earning more than graduates who don’t know how to change a plug.

The younger generation are learning to do practical stuff themselves again, it’s too expensive to call someone out for basic things and there are loads of online tutorials available on how to do basic tasks.