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Brexit

Brexit mega thread part 11: is fucktastrophy a word?

1000 replies

mirages08 · 25/05/2023 12:11

Part 11 of this mega thread

Couldn't see a new one?

Hope you don't mind a newbie starting it!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
205
HannibalHeyes · 05/07/2023 15:52

A very good post on Twatter about what is likely coming if things don't change;

Edwin Hayward@edwinhayward
Here's how the future is going to play out...

(Long - please expand the tweet.)

  1. The Tories will keep on wrecking things faster and faster as the GE approaches. They'll act like irresponsible teenagers who know they don't have to clean up in the morning after a wild drunken binge.

Why?
A) It's their last chance to firehose cash at their friends and cronies.
B) It's an opportunity to further feather their own nests before they're out of office.
C) It stuffs Labour even more - we'll return to this soon enough.
D) The more chaos they cause and the more scandals they trigger, the less chance there is of any one case of wrongdoing being investigated.

From a Tory POV, the best stuff to break is anything that's unfixable. For instance, the closure of all train ticket offices. Once those have been turned into coffee concessions and the staff fired or moved elsewhere, both the facilities and the expertise will be gone for good.

  1. Regardless of actual policies, Labour will win the GE on a desperate tide of people wanting to Get The Tories out. However (and this will prove vital later) their future freedom to manoevre will be severely limited by the bright red lines they've been laying down on stuff like Brexit.

Related aside: Remember, the losing party has a blank slate. The electorate thumbed their noses at the manifesto, so they have total freedom to bin it. ("Nobody liked what we had to offer, so we need to do something different.") But this isn't true of the winning party. Even though pledges do get broken and manifesto commitments forgotten, they are still constrained by what they promised to win office.

  1. Labour will start trying to fix the stuff the Tories broke. It will prove very expensive. Mending stuff is always more expensive than breaking it. It will be slow going too. And Labour will be trapped by the need to be "fiscally responsible" in a way the Tories never would, because our mainly RW media is waiting to tear them a new one if they spend as much as a single brass penny without accounting for where it came from.

Related aside 2: Is the political playing field level when it comes to British media? Absolutely not. It's totally unfair. But this is a known known, so Labour have to find ways to win - and win repeatedly - despite being hobbled by the press.

  1. Labour will try to Make Brexit Work. The RW tabloids will tear bigger strips off them than usual, painting even minor concessions as a Great Betrayal. (If you're not paying attention, you need to realise that the tabloids pillory Labour every. single. day. So this will be a ramping up rather than a different attitude.)

Related aside 3: Since anything Labour does to "undo Brexit" will be portrayed as a betrayal, no matter how insignificant, they might as well take huge lumbering steps rather than teeny tiny ones. It won't make the tabloids more rabid than they're inevitably going to be.

  1. Make Brexit Work won't. Work, that is. You might as well try and put the toothpaste back in the tube after you brushed your teeth with it. Brexit is inherently unworkable by its very nature. The small improvements won't be nearly enough for Rejoiners, will infuriate still-Leavers, and will barely move the dial on Britain's Brexit problems.

Related aside 4: Young voters who came of voting age since the referendum already break 86/14 in favour of Rejoin. By the time we get through a first Labour term, anyone under 32 will be overwhelmingly keen to re-enter the EU.

  1. Meanwhile, Labour will also have to spend more and more and more to keep stuff from literally falling apart. Think sewers, water pipes, collapsing schools, crumbling hospitals. The legacy of Tory underinvestment has played havoc with already fragile infrastructure. Again, stern questions will be asked about where the money is coming from.
  1. The rump of the Tory party, whatever's left after the GE wipeout, will sit on the sidelines laughing and jeering. "Typical Labour. Always spending money they don't have." They will point to every single broken thing, claiming they're all Labour's fault - and the RW media will amplify the message.
  1. If they're very lucky, Labour will go into the GE-after-next with the overall situation in Britain slightly better than when they took office. We'll only be knee-deep in metaphoric (and maybe literal) sewage, rather than thigh-deep.
  1. The Tories and RW press will continue their tag-teaming attacks. ("Same old Labour. Can't be trusted with the economy. Can't get anything working. Can't even fix Brexit, despite all their lofty promises.)
  1. GE2: Electric Boogaloo. Labour are stuck. The taunts about their flagship Make Brexit Work policy hit home - because they're true. And that lubricates the way for all the other lies the Tories and the RW media are spinning about them to slip down like honey.

If Labour pivot towards SM/CU/Rejoin to try to win GE2, they might as well tattoo "we wasted the last 5 years and prolonged the damage because we didn't know what the hell we were doing" on their foreheads. They may pivot anyway, because the alternative is even worse. This is where those bright red lines (remember them?) will come back to bite them in the fundament so hard, they won't be able to sit down for a month. The press will scream "U-turn" and again it will be absolutely true: a U-turn so big, it's visible from the Moon.

Related aside 5: There's no Get the Tories Out vote in GE2. Why? Because they're already out. The impetus to keep them out won't win over disgruntled voters who already lent their votes to Labour once with gritted teeth, despite Labour not doing what they wanted on things like Brexit and PR.

  1. Labour lose GE2. A one-term wonder, and they're done. The Tories do what they do best: they blame all Britain's ills on Labour, and start wrecking the country afresh with a clean slate. Heck, they're still bleating about the "No money left" letter today, so we know exactly how this stuff plays out.

Related aside 6: From the standpoint of history, being PM is perhaps 100x more important than being Leader of the Opposition. A place in posterity for eternity is the grand prize that even very rich people can't buy (though their wealth can certainly help towards attaining it). So Keir Starmer won't be nearly as disappointed as you might imagine. If he makes it a full term, that's already longer than May, Johnson, Truss (!) and Sunak managed. His standing is assured. Put another way: his incentives are not our incentives.

  1. Another ruinous decade or so of Tory rule. (We know how hard it is for Labour to win. They need the Tories to mess up so badly that a tide of outrage carries them over the finish line. That tide is unlikely to rise again over a term dominated by constant reminders of "Labour's failings" playing out 24/7 in the RW press and on RW TV and radio.)

Deep breath. Have a coffee and a biscuit. You've earned them. We've seen the problem. Now it's time to tackle the solution.

Scroll back up through the scenario above. Notice how Brexit runs through it, like a vein pumping poison.

That's why Labour need to change their fundamental attitude towards Brexit, and they need to do it now - not just before the GE.

Stop ruling things out. Not saying you won't do something isn't the same as saying you will do it. Read the previous sentence a few times - it does make sense. Think along the lines of "Labour will do whatever it takes to mitigate the damage Brexit is causing Britain". The actual message can be polished by the pros. It's the intent that matters. Without the red lines on SM/CU/Rejoin, anything becomes possible.

By making the change now, it blunts the moaning in the media. Why? Because it dilutes the impact of the u-turn over a year or more, rather than concentrating it into the last month of intense scrutiny just before the GE.

The other vital ingredient is PR.

Simply put, PR is the only hope we have of achieving any sort of long-term stability.

Why? Because many of the problems Britain faces will take 2, 3, 4+ election cycles to fix. And they need fixing. But the only conceivable way of unlocking the time to fix them is to form long-term partnerships in the national interest. In other words, PR.

PR rids us of the short-termism mindset that has dragged Britain down for decades. Though the exact balance in Parliament will change from GE to GE, even under PR, a coalition will almost certain be possible without involving the Tories or other RW parties. It is better to have a share of power forever than absolute power for a few years before the other lot come in and undo everything you worked towards.

Related aside 7: Don't think of GEs in terms of a 5-year cycle. When the party in power changes, their first year is spent trying to pick through the mess and understand what's going on. And the final year of every 5-year cycle is focused on the next GE. So there are really only ever 4 (and more often 3) years of actual governing possible under FPTP in every 5-year election cycle.

Summary: Labour needs to adopt a completely different attitude to Brexit (stop ruling stuff out, and make the change now) and move to introduce PR.

Phew, we're very nearly done. Congratulations on making it this far.

In parting: You may disagree with what you just read. You probably will. But please take a big step back and evaluate whether your disagreement is because it's just too horrible to think about the real world in the stark terms I painted above. Also, please consider whether your support for a particular party is blinding you to the reality of what they can hope to achieve in a short 5-year (really 3) period in office.

Thanks for your interest, and have a great day.

https://twitter.com/edwinhayward

mirages08 · 05/07/2023 17:59

HannibalHeyes · 05/07/2023 15:52

A very good post on Twatter about what is likely coming if things don't change;

Edwin Hayward@edwinhayward
Here's how the future is going to play out...

(Long - please expand the tweet.)

  1. The Tories will keep on wrecking things faster and faster as the GE approaches. They'll act like irresponsible teenagers who know they don't have to clean up in the morning after a wild drunken binge.

Why?
A) It's their last chance to firehose cash at their friends and cronies.
B) It's an opportunity to further feather their own nests before they're out of office.
C) It stuffs Labour even more - we'll return to this soon enough.
D) The more chaos they cause and the more scandals they trigger, the less chance there is of any one case of wrongdoing being investigated.

From a Tory POV, the best stuff to break is anything that's unfixable. For instance, the closure of all train ticket offices. Once those have been turned into coffee concessions and the staff fired or moved elsewhere, both the facilities and the expertise will be gone for good.

  1. Regardless of actual policies, Labour will win the GE on a desperate tide of people wanting to Get The Tories out. However (and this will prove vital later) their future freedom to manoevre will be severely limited by the bright red lines they've been laying down on stuff like Brexit.

Related aside: Remember, the losing party has a blank slate. The electorate thumbed their noses at the manifesto, so they have total freedom to bin it. ("Nobody liked what we had to offer, so we need to do something different.") But this isn't true of the winning party. Even though pledges do get broken and manifesto commitments forgotten, they are still constrained by what they promised to win office.

  1. Labour will start trying to fix the stuff the Tories broke. It will prove very expensive. Mending stuff is always more expensive than breaking it. It will be slow going too. And Labour will be trapped by the need to be "fiscally responsible" in a way the Tories never would, because our mainly RW media is waiting to tear them a new one if they spend as much as a single brass penny without accounting for where it came from.

Related aside 2: Is the political playing field level when it comes to British media? Absolutely not. It's totally unfair. But this is a known known, so Labour have to find ways to win - and win repeatedly - despite being hobbled by the press.

  1. Labour will try to Make Brexit Work. The RW tabloids will tear bigger strips off them than usual, painting even minor concessions as a Great Betrayal. (If you're not paying attention, you need to realise that the tabloids pillory Labour every. single. day. So this will be a ramping up rather than a different attitude.)

Related aside 3: Since anything Labour does to "undo Brexit" will be portrayed as a betrayal, no matter how insignificant, they might as well take huge lumbering steps rather than teeny tiny ones. It won't make the tabloids more rabid than they're inevitably going to be.

  1. Make Brexit Work won't. Work, that is. You might as well try and put the toothpaste back in the tube after you brushed your teeth with it. Brexit is inherently unworkable by its very nature. The small improvements won't be nearly enough for Rejoiners, will infuriate still-Leavers, and will barely move the dial on Britain's Brexit problems.

Related aside 4: Young voters who came of voting age since the referendum already break 86/14 in favour of Rejoin. By the time we get through a first Labour term, anyone under 32 will be overwhelmingly keen to re-enter the EU.

  1. Meanwhile, Labour will also have to spend more and more and more to keep stuff from literally falling apart. Think sewers, water pipes, collapsing schools, crumbling hospitals. The legacy of Tory underinvestment has played havoc with already fragile infrastructure. Again, stern questions will be asked about where the money is coming from.
  1. The rump of the Tory party, whatever's left after the GE wipeout, will sit on the sidelines laughing and jeering. "Typical Labour. Always spending money they don't have." They will point to every single broken thing, claiming they're all Labour's fault - and the RW media will amplify the message.
  1. If they're very lucky, Labour will go into the GE-after-next with the overall situation in Britain slightly better than when they took office. We'll only be knee-deep in metaphoric (and maybe literal) sewage, rather than thigh-deep.
  1. The Tories and RW press will continue their tag-teaming attacks. ("Same old Labour. Can't be trusted with the economy. Can't get anything working. Can't even fix Brexit, despite all their lofty promises.)
  1. GE2: Electric Boogaloo. Labour are stuck. The taunts about their flagship Make Brexit Work policy hit home - because they're true. And that lubricates the way for all the other lies the Tories and the RW media are spinning about them to slip down like honey.

If Labour pivot towards SM/CU/Rejoin to try to win GE2, they might as well tattoo "we wasted the last 5 years and prolonged the damage because we didn't know what the hell we were doing" on their foreheads. They may pivot anyway, because the alternative is even worse. This is where those bright red lines (remember them?) will come back to bite them in the fundament so hard, they won't be able to sit down for a month. The press will scream "U-turn" and again it will be absolutely true: a U-turn so big, it's visible from the Moon.

Related aside 5: There's no Get the Tories Out vote in GE2. Why? Because they're already out. The impetus to keep them out won't win over disgruntled voters who already lent their votes to Labour once with gritted teeth, despite Labour not doing what they wanted on things like Brexit and PR.

  1. Labour lose GE2. A one-term wonder, and they're done. The Tories do what they do best: they blame all Britain's ills on Labour, and start wrecking the country afresh with a clean slate. Heck, they're still bleating about the "No money left" letter today, so we know exactly how this stuff plays out.

Related aside 6: From the standpoint of history, being PM is perhaps 100x more important than being Leader of the Opposition. A place in posterity for eternity is the grand prize that even very rich people can't buy (though their wealth can certainly help towards attaining it). So Keir Starmer won't be nearly as disappointed as you might imagine. If he makes it a full term, that's already longer than May, Johnson, Truss (!) and Sunak managed. His standing is assured. Put another way: his incentives are not our incentives.

  1. Another ruinous decade or so of Tory rule. (We know how hard it is for Labour to win. They need the Tories to mess up so badly that a tide of outrage carries them over the finish line. That tide is unlikely to rise again over a term dominated by constant reminders of "Labour's failings" playing out 24/7 in the RW press and on RW TV and radio.)

Deep breath. Have a coffee and a biscuit. You've earned them. We've seen the problem. Now it's time to tackle the solution.

Scroll back up through the scenario above. Notice how Brexit runs through it, like a vein pumping poison.

That's why Labour need to change their fundamental attitude towards Brexit, and they need to do it now - not just before the GE.

Stop ruling things out. Not saying you won't do something isn't the same as saying you will do it. Read the previous sentence a few times - it does make sense. Think along the lines of "Labour will do whatever it takes to mitigate the damage Brexit is causing Britain". The actual message can be polished by the pros. It's the intent that matters. Without the red lines on SM/CU/Rejoin, anything becomes possible.

By making the change now, it blunts the moaning in the media. Why? Because it dilutes the impact of the u-turn over a year or more, rather than concentrating it into the last month of intense scrutiny just before the GE.

The other vital ingredient is PR.

Simply put, PR is the only hope we have of achieving any sort of long-term stability.

Why? Because many of the problems Britain faces will take 2, 3, 4+ election cycles to fix. And they need fixing. But the only conceivable way of unlocking the time to fix them is to form long-term partnerships in the national interest. In other words, PR.

PR rids us of the short-termism mindset that has dragged Britain down for decades. Though the exact balance in Parliament will change from GE to GE, even under PR, a coalition will almost certain be possible without involving the Tories or other RW parties. It is better to have a share of power forever than absolute power for a few years before the other lot come in and undo everything you worked towards.

Related aside 7: Don't think of GEs in terms of a 5-year cycle. When the party in power changes, their first year is spent trying to pick through the mess and understand what's going on. And the final year of every 5-year cycle is focused on the next GE. So there are really only ever 4 (and more often 3) years of actual governing possible under FPTP in every 5-year election cycle.

Summary: Labour needs to adopt a completely different attitude to Brexit (stop ruling stuff out, and make the change now) and move to introduce PR.

Phew, we're very nearly done. Congratulations on making it this far.

In parting: You may disagree with what you just read. You probably will. But please take a big step back and evaluate whether your disagreement is because it's just too horrible to think about the real world in the stark terms I painted above. Also, please consider whether your support for a particular party is blinding you to the reality of what they can hope to achieve in a short 5-year (really 3) period in office.

Thanks for your interest, and have a great day.

Best post I've seen in a while

Hope labour HQ are listening! (They arent, they are on thrall to TRAs on twitter and racist leave voters...)

OP posts:
LouiseCollins28 · 08/07/2023 17:00

Wow that was a long post that thread from Edwin Hayward, interesting stuff though. How Labour position themselves on Brexit will be interesting. Not sure railway ticket offices was the right hill for him to pick to die on but what do I know. Lets see where inflation is in a years time and how Rishi is getting on with those pledges.

SerendipityJane · 08/07/2023 19:27

In an extraordinary admission of the failures of immigration policy since the UK left the EU, former Tory environment secretary George Eustice said Rishi Sunak’s government should begin bilateral negotiations with EU nations immediately, with a view to offering young Europeans under 35 the right to two- year visas to work in this country.

What happened to they need us more than we need them ? I notice the story elides the fact that the UK needs to open 27 separate negotiations, unless there are some EU members that are willing to club together,

However, the deeper problem is Brand Britain isn't particularly attractive to EU citizens right now. Bearing in mind recruiting staff is the easy bit. Retaining them less so.

And all of this is pure hot air anyway. The UK is not going to ease immigration for anyone who isn't a mate of Rish! or his mates.

And quite frankly, given the balls up the UK has made of ensuring EU citizens who were allowed to remain here before all of this, why on Gods Green Earth would anyone think they'd be any better at this ?

George Eustice | Politics | The Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/george-eustice

TooBigForMyBoots · 08/07/2023 19:40

Not again.🙄

HannibalHeyes · 08/07/2023 20:26

The Freedom of Movement replacement bus service will be along any time now...

SerendipityJane · 10/07/2023 08:40

EU and New Zealand sign a free trade agreement that brings NZ into Horizon

https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1OdKrzBBjknKX

https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1OdKrzBBjknKX

Peregrina · 10/07/2023 09:02

EU and New Zealand sign a free trade agreement that brings NZ into Horizon

But we had to leave the EU to sign a deal with NZ to sell our farming industry down the river!

As for Horizon - Sunak is still shilly shallying about it.

DrBlackbird · 10/07/2023 09:17

Came across this website. Love it’s title in a dispiriting loving kind of way.

Brexit Carnage

Live newswire drawing attention to the damage that leaving the EU is doing to the UK

https://brexitcarnage.org/

SerendipityJane · 10/07/2023 09:55

Peregrina · 10/07/2023 09:02

EU and New Zealand sign a free trade agreement that brings NZ into Horizon

But we had to leave the EU to sign a deal with NZ to sell our farming industry down the river!

As for Horizon - Sunak is still shilly shallying about it.

Sunak doesn't want to pay into Horizon, that's the "stumbling block"

Cake and eat it, remember

HannibalHeyes · 10/07/2023 10:27

So NZ has signed a better deal with the EU than the one we have. Woo.

And the winning never stops. "If we have a 10% tariff that makes our vans more expensive going into Europe. If we are not cost competitive then we jeopardise our long term future."

Mark Noble, plant director, Vauxhall Luton

Fears for Vauxhall Luton van plant's future due to Brexit

Its long term future could be in jeopardy if part of the treaty is not renegotiated, a director says.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-66126185

DuncinToffee · 10/07/2023 10:29

I was looking for that story on the BBC website, it mentions Brexit but 'hidden' in the local news section.

Peregrina · 10/07/2023 11:16

It's depressing isn't it - the damage that Farage, Cameron, Johnson and Truss have done to the country will be with us for decades. As for Sunak - is he PM or is he a wet dishcloth?

Jason118 · 10/07/2023 12:04

Wet dishcloths can be very useful......

LouiseCollins28 · 10/07/2023 13:48

Sorting that out is clearly in Vauxhall's court. They decribe the Vivaro as "Made in Britain" yet more than 55% of the parts seemingly come not just not from Britain but not even from within the EU. If you want your advert to say its made here, make it here. Seriously, how is this any sort of challenge? It's a fucking van not an airliner or a rocket or something.

Jason118 · 10/07/2023 16:52

It's not a technical challenge to make it all here, it's a cost base challenge. Why would any multi national manufacturer spend more than they need?

SerendipityJane · 10/07/2023 17:38

Sorting that out is clearly in Vauxhall's court.

Just as a matter of interest, what would be in the governments court then ? Apart from dodgy deals with dodgy mates and our cash ?

SerendipityJane · 11/07/2023 11:39

Sorting that out is clearly in F1s court.

LouiseCollins28 · 11/07/2023 14:56

SerendipityJane · 10/07/2023 17:38

Sorting that out is clearly in Vauxhall's court.

Just as a matter of interest, what would be in the governments court then ? Apart from dodgy deals with dodgy mates and our cash ?

Defending the country from any threat to its territorial integrity and providing safety for its people from those wanting to threaten them externally or internally. That's the duty of any government. It is discharged in the UK by the provsion of HM armed forces and the Police. Anything else on top of that is optional IMO. There are many, many things I want a government to do, these are the only things that I consider they have to do.

Odd then, given such a meagre test to pass in providing for the nations security, that every government I've lived under has failed it. The possible exception of the Truss one but that's only because they didn't serve long enough for the UK to be involved in a war, endure a terror attack or some some horrific crime.

FrankieStein403 · 11/07/2023 15:34

>Defending the country from any threat to its territorial integrity

Which requires a logistics footprint appropriate to whatever threats you deem are to be defended against.

That logistics footprint needs to be maintained for the duration of whatever conflict you deem as part of that defence.

Maintaining a logistics footprint requires assured supply of raw materials and manufacturing capacity as well as the energy sources and trained and fed manpower.

ie you quite quickly get into food, water, energy, manufacturing, education as being in the remit of the state.

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