Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Brexit mega thread part 4 : non goady thread : Christmas edition

981 replies

Opal8 · 07/12/2021 18:29

Hi,

Longtime lurker and poster (under various nn) on Westminstenders and these threads.

I'm afraid the other thread op pissed me off a lot so here's another option for those of us that want one.

Wishing you all a Happy Christmas and good luck for 2022.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
54
DGRossetti · 06/01/2022 11:29

@DuncinToffee

Oops

..The EU is now allowing member states to levy zero rating on energy bills

..So the one brexit freedom Boris Johnson has identified, but is refusing to use, isn't even a brexit freedom any more

They are trolling the UK.
DuncinToffee · 06/01/2022 11:34

Very easily done Grin

Peregrina · 06/01/2022 11:53

I had not seen this two year old article now, but it helps to explain why Liz Truss insisted on hosting an expenses busting meeting in 5 Hertford Street. Nothing to do with last minute or convenient location.

Eve · 06/01/2022 15:16

@GaspodeWonderCat

Project leaders don't understand IT (did classics at Oxbridge), don't listen to staff who do, led by the nose/pocket by industry (jobs when you retire from civil service/MOD et al) ...

DH had an interview for a senior technical role on a large public sector (MOD) project - went through 3 interviews last interview was with a senior Army bod who was the project sponsor, DH didn't get the job as he didn't use 'Army' terminology in the interview!

He found out afterwards the recruitment agency give up on filling the role as no-one lived up to the Army bod's expectation!

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 06/01/2022 19:01

R4 tonight at 8pm - The Briefing Room topic is 'Brexit - What have we learned?' with Katya Adler, Peter Foster et al.

FrankieStein403 · 06/01/2022 21:23

Just what is it about this country’s civil service that it can’t do successful tech?

It can - its just harder to hide failure in the public sector - you almost never get to hear about failures in the private sector, that doesn't mean they don't happen - I spent many years working on large projects in both public and private sectors - failure happens in both. In the private sector huge sums are wasted in cash rich sectors - eg finance, telco, energy

Basically large systems are hard. Throw in politicians / directors /top brass, with no mechanism to hold them to account and you get delivery issues - the political/director level viewpoints that break delivery feel like they originate from the same sources - old boy networks, 'friends' or even simply being nobbled by snake oil salesmen.

The result is you get people using their power to change project direction but no understanding of impacts or willingness to accept guidance from those who do.

AdaHopper · 06/01/2022 21:52

@FrankieStein403

>Just what is it about this country’s civil service that it can’t do successful tech?

It can - its just harder to hide failure in the public sector - you almost never get to hear about failures in the private sector, that doesn't mean they don't happen - I spent many years working on large projects in both public and private sectors - failure happens in both. In the private sector huge sums are wasted in cash rich sectors - eg finance, telco, energy

Basically large systems are hard. Throw in politicians / directors /top brass, with no mechanism to hold them to account and you get delivery issues - the political/director level viewpoints that break delivery feel like they originate from the same sources - old boy networks, 'friends' or even simply being nobbled by snake oil salesmen.

The result is you get people using their power to change project direction but no understanding of impacts or willingness to accept guidance from those who do.

A bit like Brexit really Grin
DuncinToffee · 06/01/2022 22:08

Or Johnson forgetting about his WhatsApp conversation because he got a new phone.

DrBlackbird · 06/01/2022 23:34

Project leaders don't understand IT (did classics at Oxbridge), don't listen to staff who do, led by the nose/pocket by industry (jobs when you retire from civil service/MOD et al)
@GaspodeWonderCat and @Eve

That makes complete sense…

mathanxiety · 07/01/2022 07:12

Here we see the ECHR trolling the Brexiteers.

The background is a gay man suing a Belfast bakery which had refused to bake a cake for him featuring a specific design.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-59882444
In their ruling on Thursday, the judges said the case was inadmissible because Mr Lee had not invoked his rights under the European Convention of Human Rights "at any point in the domestic proceedings" in the UK courts.

The judges decided that in order for a complaint to be admissible, "the Convention arguments must be raised explicitly or in substance before the domestic authorities".

"By relying solely on domestic law, the applicant had deprived the domestic courts of the opportunity to address any Convention issues raised, instead asking the court to usurp the role of the domestic courts. Smile

"Because he had failed to exhaust domestic remedies, the application was inadmissible," said the ruling.

mathanxiety · 07/01/2022 07:19

Just what is it about this country’s civil service that it can’t do successful tech?

Too early dropping of maths and science means graduates of even leading universities who go on to the civil service don't have the necessary background to understand IT or manage projects involving IT development.

Is your average STEM graduate going to go into the civil service?

Eve · 07/01/2022 12:51

Is your average STEM graduate going to go into the civil service?

same as accountants - do the top grads go to HMRC or to private companies where they can be well paid for finding ways round HMRC rules.

on another note:

Kate Hoey doing all she can to smooth NI relations :

www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/national-union-of-journalists-slams-kate-hoey-comments-about-nationalist-dominance-in-courts-and-media-3518436

and NI business saying they are doing well from the protocol

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/northern-ireland/spar-owner-says-northern-ireland-protocol-has-not-damaged-business-we-are-expanding-41213126.html

DGRossetti · 07/01/2022 13:49

and NI business saying they are doing well from the protocol

There are two outcomes of Brexit that were most definitely not intended (and will need to be walked back pretty damn asap).

  1. Northern Ireland to benefit
  2. British workers to benefit.
DGRossetti · 07/01/2022 18:00

RIP Jack Dromey.

Another by-election to watch ....

FrankieStein403 · 07/01/2022 19:18

Is your average STEM graduate going to go into the civil service?

There were (are? ) two distinct branches of the civil service - the 'lesser' branch being the 'scientific civil service' - there is good science being done across the latter and yes stem graduates do enter.

But your basic point re stem graduates and the administrative civil service holds.

An analogous model is true in the private sector - stem people in general don't aim for corporate management, hence you don't get technically qualified people on boards - very few corps even have the cio/cto on the board - and that's where the direction/decisions are set for major IT procurement/project progression - especially budget and timescale.

The golden rule of IT project management is "time, cost, scope - pick any two" board level decisions that set all three mean the project fails.

DoctorTwo · 07/01/2022 20:33

In the early '90s I met a bloke who had relocated from London to Telford when Inland Revenue did because the relocation package meant he could have a better standard of living. He became a friend of mine and I knew he worked in their IT dept and was highly thought of. In about 1995 he took redundancy and early retirement when his department was privatised. Knowing what his package (fnar) was I didn't blame him. About 8 months later he accepted his old job back on a miles better salary to help plug some of the holes created when they were hollowed out by privatising them.

He was put under more and more pressure due to it now being a private corporation to cut costs, which you can't really do in a public service. Not if you want it to serve the public of course, which is why the Tories like to privatise stuff, take money off us and pass it on to their donors. Renationalise everything these fuckers have stolen from us, including the privatised parts of the NHS.

mathanxiety · 08/01/2022 06:48

In it she had said: “I support ... the ongoing work to encourage those, especially from working-class loyalist communities, to engage in education and to seek entry to professional vocations such as journalism, law, and public service.

“There are very justified concerns that many professional vocations have become dominated by those of a nationalist persuasion, and this positioning of activists is then used to exert influence on those in power.”

Hoey's comments..

There is a lot of soreness in Loyal NI about perceived domination of Queen's University Belfast by 'Fenians'. Since the 1960s, QUB has been identified as a place where RCs/nationalists have felt at home.

QUB welcomes everyone. The real problem is the importance of the concept of domination in the mindset of the Loyalist, the related unshakeable idea that if you are not with them you are against them, and the inability to feel comfortable in any environment not dominated by them. This is clear in the comments regarding the journalism profession - along with a sense of victimhood.

Thanks to a tendency to identify with Britain, educated and ambitious Unionists have historically seized opportunities outside of the island of Ireland. Educated NI Unionists also have a long tradition of service in the British armed forces. Nationalists have not availed of these avenues to success, for various historical reasons, and tend to go to QUB or to universities in Ireland and remain either in NI or in Ireland for their careers. So Hoey is partly right about the influential professions becoming majority minority. Her conception of it as some sort of battle the nationalists are winning shows the defensiveness and hostility that form the bedrock of the Loyalist mentality in NI.

Her reference to Loyalists disengaging from education is correct too - historically there were very few unskilled jobs available for RCs in NI, and thanks to the RC school system and basically having no choice, RCs tended to opt for full-length secondary education and then third level education, while Loyalist youth could count on unskilled jobs until NI became 'post-industrial' like much of the rest of the west. So far, working class Loyalist communities have not managed to adopt a pro-education culture.

www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/national-union-of-journalists-slams-kate-hoey-comments-about-nationalist-dominance-in-courts-and-media-3518436

dontcallmelen · 08/01/2022 14:35

.

DGRossetti · 08/01/2022 17:48

Why it pays to read foreign news sources. Apologies for formatting. I missed this weeks cut and paste lessons, what with Clav being so quiet of late.

www.thenational.scot/politics/19834025.ex-diplomat-alexandra-hall-hall-sums-exactly-wrong-uk-brilliant-thread/

Start

ALEXANDRA Hall Hall, a former British diplomat, is “starting to question everything”.

She thought she knew about the UK and its institutions after more than 30 years of government service.

It’s a bold statement for someone with her career history to make – but what came next was even wilder.

On the evening of January 7, Hall Hall, former British ambassador to Georgia and Brexit counsellor at the British Embassy in Washington,

logged onto social media to reveal that after all that time so close to the centre of power, she has decided that the UK is undemocratic,

that it thrives on “shameless posturing and co-option of supposed patriotic icons”, and is becoming worse than ever under a Tory

government running a “systematic effort to attack and undermine any institutions which counter its narrative”.

She also took aim at the “imbalance of powers across the Union”. Whew. That’s a lot to take in.

Hall Hall quit her role as a diplomat back in December 2019, saying she was dismayed by Brexit “half-truths” coming from Westminster and

tired of the “not totally honest” messages her employers were putting out. So, we already knew she was not too keen on this current government.

But this latest viral thread from the long-serving diplomat shows more than that.

She is not just criticising the Tories – Hall Hall is dismantling the institutions of the UK itself.

below is the thread in question. We’ll let you make your judgement – but we can’t imagine too many of you would disagree.

“I woke up this morning feeling strangely unsettled...and realised that despite (or perhaps, because of) 30+yrs in conventional govt service,

I'm now starting to question everything I thought I once knew about my country and its institutions.

“Top down, our system is undemocratic - prerogative powers exercised on behalf of the Crown, unelected House of Lords, system that gives

disproportionate powers to govt, elected with less than 50% vote, imbalance in powers across the Union, cozy nexus of donors, media, politicians.

“Populace kept distracted and entertained with never ending diet of shallow news and gossip about royals, toffs, socialites, models, sports, pop,

soaps, crime, etc. Feelgood stories or trivia which gloss over the challenges and inequities which actually prevail in our society.

“But getting so much worse under this govt, with its systematic efforts to attack and undermine any institutions which counter its narrative or try to

hold it to account - parl't, judiciary, NGOs, human rights experts, investigative journalists, standards watchdogs, liberals, etc;

“And most sickening of all, shameless posturing and co-option of supposed ‘patriotic’ icons - flags, Churchill, WW2, Britannia, the monarchy, the army,

Spirit of the Blitz, pint glasses, and invented rows with external so-called enemies - the French, the EU, the Irish.

“Ignoring real threats confronting us - internal and external. Incompetent, self-serving govt at home, failing to tackle domestic challenges;

posturing on global issues and our values overseas, while accepting dirty money, selling arms to dubious regimes, and cutting aid.

“I thought I was a fairly conventional, middle class, middle of the road, Brit - aware that the UK was not perfect, but fundamentally ok.

Now, I'm much less sure, and believe a lot needs to change. Perhaps my parents were right...I am a radical after all. Anyone feel the same?”

End

Peregrina · 08/01/2022 23:02

Anyone feel the same? Yes.

A sobering read.

Peregrina · 08/01/2022 23:10

It seems that Farage got a frosty reception in Reading. Note how he had to sneak in by the back door.

mathanxiety · 08/01/2022 23:21

Alexandra Hall nailed it.

mathanxiety · 08/01/2022 23:23

...She forgot to mention the tendency to sacrifice NI's best interests whenever it suits them.