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Brexit

Westminstenders: The New Era

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/05/2021 16:38

Scotland.
The GFA.
Its not Brexit Honest.
Levelling Up Shitholes caused by Tory austerity.
Babymilk Shortages
Cronyism

But we did good with covid jabs.

OP posts:
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31
Peregrina · 30/05/2021 06:51

It can also be observed that Priti Patel wasn't suggesting that the Holyrood elections became First Past the Post. Why not? Because it would give the SNP the same stonking majority as they get in Westminster.

yellowspanner · 30/05/2021 10:27

You may claim (rightly or wrongly) that a PR system would be more democratic but you can't claim that the UK is not a democracy.

yellowspanner · 30/05/2021 10:31

The population of the Brighton Pavilion constituency is just over 103,000. 833,000 to elect Caroline Lucas! Really!

QueenOfThorns · 30/05/2021 10:36

@yellowspanner

The population of the Brighton Pavilion constituency is just over 103,000. 833,000 to elect Caroline Lucas! Really!
I’ll think you’ll find that the numbers given were for the whole country, just to emphasise how broken the system is. So, number of people voting for each party overall divided by how many MPs they ended up with.
borntobequiet · 30/05/2021 11:25

@yellowspanner

You may claim (rightly or wrongly) that a PR system would be more democratic but you can't claim that the UK is not a democracy.
It’s a democracy by definition because everyone 18 or over can vote. However it’s not a properly representative democracy because a high proportion of those votes are rendered null by the FPTP system, which results in many constituencies returning representatives on less than 50% of the vote, and governments being formed with mandates that have in fact only been approved by a minority of the electorate. No Government has been formed in the UK in this or the last century with 50% or more of the popular vote apart from the National Governments of 1931 and 1935 (60.7%and 53.3% respectively).
Peregrina · 30/05/2021 11:45

FPTP did of course hugely disenfrachise UKIP voters. It doesn't matter now because the Tory party has taken on their mantle.

However obnoxious one may think UKIP is or was, their supporters have as much right to be represented.

QuentininQuarantino · 30/05/2021 12:12

It’s true that in PR systems there are always extreme right mps which is horrible if you’re an immigrant or woman or gay or whatever it is they hate in that place, but there are also extreme lefts and you end up with a bit of a balance with either a centre right or centre left in power. I’m Britain you can go an entire lifetime with a meaningless vote (as my dear grandad commented near the end of his life.)

yellowspanner · 30/05/2021 12:16

Thank you QueenOfThorns, that makes much more sense now.

I don't think UKIP had some sensible policies such as leaving the EU.

pointythings · 30/05/2021 12:34

I agree that in PR systems the extremes do get represented in Parliament. In the Netherlands there is always some repugnant extreme right wing party with representation, proof I suppose that these views are held by a similarly repugnant cohort of the population. Currently it's the Forum voor Democratie. So far, those parties have always withered because they are fundamentally incompetent and tend to blow themselves up through internal divisions. I'm in favour of PR not just because it promotes genuine representative democracy and political diversity, but also because it gives these extremist parties nowhere to hide.

DGRossetti · 30/05/2021 14:51

Even the Palace aren't thrilled with Boris brand of arselikhan

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/palace-sinks-plan-to-name-200m-royal-yacht-after-philip-th6sjxcf9

mrslaughan · 30/05/2021 17:33

Echoing many things I have tried to point out to brexiteers.....

twitter.com/taxingissues/status/1398922515725144065?s=21

Westminstenders: The New Era
borntobequiet · 30/05/2021 17:41

There’s an argument for having far right and left parties represented in a Parliament because what they say and do is on record, open to scrutiny and they have to at least publish a manifesto. The danger in our system is that these people become factions infiltrating long established parties and turning them to their own ends, both of which we have seen recently.
Of course there are dangers in proportional representation as well, as the occurrences of the 1920s and 30s show us. But those were genuinely extraordinary times, and the dangers can be guarded against, one hopes, in a mature democracy.

DGRossetti · 30/05/2021 18:00

Secret courts ...

www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/30/alarm-at-secret-court-scheme-in-uk-australia-trade-deal

A free trade deal between the UK and Australia is on course to include a controversial system of secret courts that will allow businesses to seek compensation if their profits are hit by government policies.

DGRossetti · 30/05/2021 18:03

And for balance, the Telegraph

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/05/23/ms-buy-food-eu-counter-obscene-brexit-disruption/

M&S to buy more food from EU to counter 'obscene' N Ireland border disruption

HarrietPierce · 30/05/2021 18:31

Brexit is complete fuck up. How anybody can still think it is a good idea is beyond me.

mathanxiety · 30/05/2021 20:06

@yellowspanner
You may claim (rightly or wrongly) that a PR system would be more democratic but you can't claim that the UK is not a democracy.

It's actually a constitutional or parliamentary monarchy.

The political theory behind that arrangement is that the authority underpinning the law and the authority of the executive within the legislative branch ultimately emanate from the monarch, not from the people's consensus.

'Democracy' is not a word with a fixed meaning. There is no gold standard. Claiming that for the UK's version - a parliamentary system known as the 'Westminster system' - is perhaps a case of wrapping oneself in the flag?

pointythings · 30/05/2021 20:43

@mathanxiety I take the probably simplistic view that a democracy in which every vote has weight and contributes to the end result is superior to a democracy where a very large number of votes ends up basically ignored.

mathanxiety · 30/05/2021 20:44

It’s true that in PR systems there are always extreme right mps which is horrible if you’re an immigrant or woman or gay or whatever it is they hate in that place, but there are also extreme lefts and you end up with a bit of a balance with either a centre right or centre left in power.

Not necessarily. The example of Ireland's single transferable vote springs to mind.

The overall preoccupations of the electorate do tend to be better reflected with a PR system, especially a STV system that is not mitigated by a representational threshold as in Germany, so any left/right polarisation may well result in representation of those views in parliament, but in the absence of L/R polarisation other factors can come into play. There are downsides to both full representation of the plurality of opinion in any given constituency, and lack of representation of diversity of opinion. The Weimar experience casts a long shadow over Germany, whose constitution errs on the side of caution.

PR can result in election of independents who are very popular in their own constituencies for reasons including personal popularity, but bringing tangible benefits to constituents results in long term re-election. Independents can end up holding considerable power if larger parties are neck and neck. This has been the case in Ireland.
www.irishtimes.com/news/independent-td-tony-gregory-dies-at-the-age-of-61-1.833692

The fact that representation is proportional to the vote in any given constituency in Ireland means that the ballot box has an appeal for groups which might otherwise retain full trust in the armalite and eschew engagement in the political process. The give and take of parliamentary life, engagement with the media, and the necessity of engaging with the voters tend to have an effect on groups dipping their toes in the electoral process. This is how the (fascist) Blueshirts ended up merging successfully into Fine Gael, and the Republicans who fought a war of independence and a civil war ended up dominating Irish electoral politics for decades in the form of Fianna Fail. We now see Sinn Fein being moulded by engagement with the process and attention to the way of thinking that it necessitates.

Majoritarian electoral systems are not necessarily representative, as pointed out by John Stuart Mill.
In a representative body actually deliberating, the minority must of course be overruled; and in an equal democracy, the majority of the people, through their representatives, will outvote and prevail over the minority and their representatives. But does it follow that the minority should have no representatives at all? ...Is it necessary that the minority should not even be heard? Nothing but habit and old association can reconcile any reasonable being to the needless injustice. In a really equal democracy, every or any section would be represented, not disproportionately, but proportionately. A majority of the electors would always have a majority of the representatives, but a minority of the electors would always have a minority of the representatives. Man for man, they would be as fully represented as the majority. Unless they are, there is not equal government ... there is a part whose fair and equal share of influence in the representation is withheld from them, contrary to all just government, but, above all, contrary to the principle of democracy, which professes equality as its very root and foundation.

HannibalHayeski · 30/05/2021 21:02

The Swiss view of us.

Westminstenders: The New Era
HannibalHayeski · 30/05/2021 21:04

And what our numpties think of what they voted for...

Westminstenders: The New Era
HannibalHayeski · 30/05/2021 23:09

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Westminstenders: The New Era
DrBlackbird · 31/05/2021 07:48

MrsL Johnson is just all about the headline and will go for perception of a quick win over a difficult protracted reality. Remember Hammond saying 'Boris doesn't do details'. So Johnson will push to get the FTA with Oz 'done' to look good secure in the knowledge that media will trumpet this as a great win. While Truss is clearly and obviously over her head.

Peregrina · 31/05/2021 08:06

A quick win which will be just as disastrous as the NI Protocol or the deal with fishermen.

DrBlackbird · 31/05/2021 10:44

They act in haste, we get to repent in leisure... that's the new system.

So, no great deal for British fishermen, that's gone. No great deal for British farmers or for the environment (thrown under the bus in having to compete with incoming produce grown under different standards etc), that's gone or will be soon going.

No great deal for British manufacturers, but we always knew that one. Also, no Erasmus with fewer options for our British students in every way. Hmm, what's left?

Oh yes, that brilliant immigration system. One definitely structured to favouring the wealthy. That'll certainly make up for all the losses.

HannibalHayeski · 31/05/2021 17:04

And in "Global Britain" news;

Brexit shrank UK services exports by £110bn