Northern Ireland troubles *title edited at OP's request by MNHQ*

[ZNation]

Could someone help me with the troubles in Ireland and why Brexit has provoked this ? What the issue is and are people generally against Brexit in Ireland?
I have tried to google before anyone says but I don't understand.

The basic problem in NI is that there are two communities that in many cases lead completely separate lives. One community - Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist - are descended from British settlers from the 16th/17th century when England invaded Ireland and displaced much of the local population. They identify as British and have a strong British identity.

The other community - Catholic/Nationalist/Republican - are descended from the native Irish and have an Irish identity.

The two communities have never mixed and can live totally separate lives - living in separate areas, going to separate schools, playing different sports, even listening to different radio and TV.

Each community is equally entitled to their identity.

Ireland was partitioned because at the time a majority in the northern part were from the Protestant/Unionist community and did not want independence. Britain saw them as British and split the island based on the demands of the Unionists, ignoring local wishes. Two counties which voted for independence were included in NI to make NI larger and more viable, even though the majority in those areas wanted independence.

Within NI were a minority of Irish who were - and remain - every bit as Irish as their cousins on other sides of the border. We would not say that people in Scotland are not Scottish as they do not have independence.

Until the GFA, NI gave priority to the British identity, and in many cases actively discriminated against those from a Catholic/nationalist community. To consider yourself Irish in NI was seen as subversive by the state.

The GFA was a real breakthrough as it gave parity of esteem. People in NI could be British or Irish or both. People are entitled to both Irish and British passports as they choose.

The border was removed so that those who wanted could feel for all practical purposes that they lived in a single country and many live in NI (cheaper) and work in the republic (better wages).

Brexit and particularly Johnson’s hard Brexit has messed this all up. There has to be a border somewhere - a land border is unenforceable and will upset the Irish community, a sea border upsets the British community.

So this is all a big mess. Under the GFA NI was normalising as identity no longer mattered so much. Now when people feel their identity is under threat, all the problems re-emerge.

People are entitled to both Irish and British passports as they choose.

And let's not overlook the hypocrisy of Leave voters rushing to claim their Irish passports if entitled to one. Not just NI Leavers either.

The GFA was a huge breakthrough and for Johnson to squander the results so casually verges on the criminal IMO.

Yes, Britain has never cared much for NI and increasingly the Republic doesn’t much either as the comments here show.

The only solution is to recognise both communities as equal and that NI is both Irish and British.

But making NI both Irish and British doesn't solve the current Brexit mess. May's work around of keeping the whole of the UK in the customs union for the time being would have alleviated many of the problems.

Would be good to rename this thread.
I can’t imagine how scarring this is for NI residents to have water cannon back used on the streets and repeated rioting after not being listened to over Brexit.
It’s upsetting enough to see it on tv as residents of England where the fear of Troubles-related bombing in the 70s, 80s and 90s was real and justified. This should be front page news. NI is part of the UK.

A good post overall but this stood out as the main issue

There has to be a border somewhere - a land border is unenforceable and will upset the Irish community, a sea border upsets the British community.

Post Brexit there is no easy solution

I do feel like the majority of British people need more education on NI, some of the reactions I've seen have been very, "oh it's just Ireland being Ireland". England should not be so disconnected and unaware, especially when it's been so responsible for what's happened (now and in the past).

I don't remember being taught anything about NI in school (I'm English), which seems utterly nuts. We learnt more about long distant wars in distant countries than what was happening in our own country, even though (at the time) the GFA was yet to exist.

Great summary, @Eyewhisker.

Would be good to rename this thread

I asked @MNHQ to have a look at it last night but no response yet, for some reason.
Last time I asked for a similar thread to be retitled, they refused to do so unless the OP requested it. Very frustrating when it clear causes upset and lends itself to misinformation.

I think Johnson also factored a second Trump term into his plan to brush the NI/Brexit issue under the rug, but Biden’s win has put a spanner in the works. Biden has very clearly said that the USA will do nothing that falls outside of the GFA. Listening to an interview he gave last month where he spoke about “the awful things the Brits did (historically)”, I think it’s fair to say that Johnson doesn’t have an allay in the States.

Admin please rename this thread as some posters think it would be better renamed, I'm not sure how to tag admin?

Leaving the thread as some posters can't post like an adult and would rather be nasty and put someone down than respond to the discussion.

Thanks to all who did post links and information I had a good read late last night.

@ZNation

Admin please rename this thread as some posters think it would be better renamed, I'm not sure how to tag admin?

Leaving the thread as some posters can't post like an adult and would rather be nasty and put someone down than respond to the discussion.

Thanks to all who did post links and information I had a good read late last night.

You need to report your OP and ask MNHQ to edit the title.

I've asked admin to rename thank you

Znation
And do hang around because your misunderstanding is no more than that of many MPs
If this thread shakes out a bit of knowledge
good

This is another good twitter thread

twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1380216279232040972?s=21

the Withdrawal Agreement containing the Northern Ireland Protocol is the Boris Johnson agreement. He signed it, fought an election on it, won, delivered it. Blaming anyone else is just bizarre.

Tories wanted it.
Tories tabled it.
Tories campaigned & lied for it.
Tory papers lied for it.
Tories negotiated it.
Tories signed off on it.

[Tories] "IT'S THE REMAINERS FAULT!"

Ireland was partitioned because at the time a majority in the northern part were from the Protestant/Unionist community and did not want independence.

Or just possibly, because the UK government retained a strategic interest in the deep water Belfast harbour and so at the time were happy to retain 'NI' as part of the UK.

Once the UK lost that interest, they were happy to have discussions which turned into the GFA. It remains a drain on UK resources. NI is not viable as a separate state. I can't see how Ireland would be very keen on taking on those who see themselves as British (even though very few in GB seen them as such).

Their best bet is for the EU and possibly US to be interested enough in providing support for an eventual return to a single state on the Island of Ireland.

The first step would be to 'desegregate' the majority of schools which are either one side or the other, so that the next generations see that they have much more in common than separates them.

This was magnificently illustrated in an early episode of Derry Girls, where two schools came together for 'cultural exchange' involving to white boards one for things Catholics snd Protestant have in common, the other fir what divides them. By the end the 'differences ' board was full to bursting and the 'similarities' board had nothing.

Funny but all.too.true.