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Brexit

Westministers : Saving the Union

954 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/02/2021 23:26

Apparently we need a tunnel. Just like we needed the £53 million failed Garden Bridge.

Nice little earner for anyone involved.

OP posts:
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ListeningQuietly · 17/02/2021 21:27

Hang on, David Frost is only 55 [wow]
If I age as badly as that in the next few weeks I'll be gutted.

Peregrina · 17/02/2021 21:29

So Gove is getting ready for his bid to be PM?

borntobequiet · 17/02/2021 21:36

Or Johnson is implementing a takedown of Gove (poss to thwart any such bid)?

RedToothBrush · 17/02/2021 21:43

I don't know but it looks like there is a bit of a power struggle going on. The question is who between as thats not entirely clear. There are hints here that Johnson is maybe losing control of the rabble - he's doing the same thing as May did in splitting power but also putting people in competition with each other.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 17/02/2021 21:46

Cars could either drive through the tube or use a shuttle train, cutting the current two-and-a-half-hour ferry journey to 40 minutes.

@Clavinova
The railway and road links would cost ££££££££££££ and take ????? number of years to complete.

The people of western Scotland would be absolutely correct to wonder why all of the connections to the wider UK that have been denied them up to now are suddenly so important.

Meanwhile, the people of NI would very likely get sick and tired of the flushing sound of their economy going down the tubes and vote to reunite with Ireland, which offers the prospect of frictionless access to EU markets, frictionless EU tourism, the benefits of the EU Regional Fund, inclusion in Irish policy on foreign investment and very slick and well-organised Irish tourism advertising, etc, etc.

These ideas about a bridge/ a floating bridge/ a tunnel, are all predicated on the notion that there will be an economy in NI by the time any of the dreams come to fruition.

And then there is this:
Do the architects/advocates of this scheme know where Portpatrick actually is? Have they ever visited the village by car or public transport?

The road out of Portpatrick is single carriageway. To head north on the A77 to Glasgow travellers need to negotiate the streets of Stranraer, and the same applies if you want to connect to the A75, which is the road used by traffic heading from here to England. On a good day and with a fair wind, the journey time by car to Glasgow or Carlisle from Portpatrick is more than two hours. There is no dual carriageway going north until you reach Ayr and no motorway until you reach Kilmarnock (check a map if you don’t know where they are in relation to Portpatrick). Going south, there are only a few overtaking opportunities towards Dumfries, then you face 23 miles of single carriageway from there to Gretna, and the M6.

A bridge over the North Channel will not make these connections any better. Without a complete roads upgrade, the Portpatrick area will not cope with the current amount of traffic from Ireland, let alone any increase.

In terms of road and transport links (or connectivity as the London-centric Tories talk about), we are the forgotten corner. Any feasibility study regarding a Celtic bridge must include the total cost. Infrastructure, dualling of both the A77 and A75, together with the impact on Portpatrick, the surrounding rich farmland, not to mention job losses from the closure of the ferry services out of Cairnryan, which incidentally are extremely efficient and well-run and get you to Northern Ireland in two hours. The ferries are rarely cancelled. We have had winds of over 60mph here, on a daily basis, for the best part of a week. The frequency of high winds here is increasing. How would a bridge in the North Channel cope?

......................
I’M not qualified to challenge Professor Alan Dunlop’s assertions about the engineering and architectural feasibility of the so-called “Celtic Bridge”; but as a long-standing and frequently disappointed supporter of investment in rail transport I have to say that his constant references to a “road and rail crossing” appear to be either naive or misleading.

Has Professor Dunlop forgotten, or not studied, the way in which a rail line over the Dornoch Firth road bridge was stymied by the then Tory-controlled Scottish Office? The sum saved was a mere £1.5 million at 1985 prices and the engineering issues were relatively simple.

If the Celtic Bridge were to go ahead, I suspect soundbites about a “road and rail crossing” would continue until the project was committed, when – surprise! – it would be discovered that both halves of the island of Ireland use a different rail track gauge from that of the mainland UK network. A quick study by consultants would bring up the economic difficulties of regaugeing the railways on the other side of the Irish Sea, the lack of capacity on the railway to Stranraer, the cost of reopening lines to serve the bridge ... and hey presto! The bridge would become road-only.

Even now, since the Northern Ireland ferry terminal was moved from Stranraer to Cairnryan, “train” passengers are treated to a bus ride from Ayr to Cairnryan, the greater part of the journey. In other words, rail is already being marginalised as a transport mode in the corridor which the bridge would serve. The bridge would simply take that process to its logical conclusion: closure of the railway south of Girvan and express buses from Glasgow to Belfast.

I doubt that the bridge project can serve both Unionist and nationalist aspirations, but whichever side of that debate you’re on, please don’t try to greenwash the project with rail references which are not borne out by experience.
www.thenational.scot/news/18237371.portpatrick-can-hardly-cope-current-flow-vehicles/

Do you know why Portpatrick features in articles about Undiscovered Scotland?
www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/portpatrick/portpatrick/index.html

Ever heard the phrase 'joined up thinking'?

blubberyboo · 17/02/2021 22:07

The Republic of Ireland is never going to agree to having their entire railway network regauged to facilitate a permanent fixture from Ireland to GB

It’s all rubbish. We know in NI that it’s all just a gimmick to make us think Westminster actually cares whilst our economy goes down the shitter
Our lorry drivers would probably more appreciate having the A75 road in Scotland upgraded to improve transport links to our ferries

Peregrina · 17/02/2021 22:20

But they needn't upgrade the whole rail network - the channel tunnel link was (eventually) built to the continental loading gauge, but no one bothered with the rest of the British network.The same would apply to a link in NI - a small spur to Belfast would be all they got.

LostToucan · 17/02/2021 22:56

[quote Clavinova]I'm surprised ToryBrexitannia didn't simply suggest going by aeroplane to "avoid" the "sea border". If you're a Leaver, presumably you don't realise that national borders go up into outer space and down into the Earth's core.

From what I understand, there are no extra checks on exports from NI to GB - only GB to NI - therefore a tunnel would attract investment in manufacturing, (agriculture?) and tourism in NI.

In an ironic flourish, which history pulls off sometimes, I could see those countries gaining their independence/reunification/EU membership on the same date as the tunnel is finally opened.

That would be ironic. Smile

A dreamer in Scotland;

A Northern Ireland to Scotland tunnel could cost up to £16bn less than a bridge, according to the architect who first proposed plans for a crossing.

Alan Dunlop–of the Glasgow-based Alan Dunlop Architects– initially suggested a bridge across the Irish Sea in January 2018; plans which won the support of Boris Johnson.

According to Dunlop, a submerged tunnel would cost between £8bn and £10bn, with a seven to 10 year build time. The cost of a 41km bridge between Portpatrick and Larne would be up to £20bn, while an alternative linking Glasgow and Ulster would cost up to £24bn, he said.

“A tunnel would require some sophisticated engineering, but it’s not the massive structure a bridge would have to be,” Dunlop told The Times. “I’m absolutely convinced it can be done. It might seem mind-blowing but the Norwegians have shown such submerged tunnels are workable and safe.”

www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/irish-sea-tunnel-could-cost-16bn-less-than-bridge-31-03-2020/[/quote]
Submerged tunnel?

How does that solve the Beaufort’s Dyke issue?

prettybird · 17/02/2021 23:05

Well, they're prepared to blow up the UK economy with Brexit, so why worry about a few munitions which may or may not explode.... Wink

mathanxiety · 17/02/2021 23:31

The point is that neither the tunnel nor increased flights to NI are going to get around the fundamental issue of the Irish Sea border.

What purpose do any of these silly, mind-bogglingly expensive proposals have?
The answer is to reassure the DUP that the Tories haven't forgotten them. While at the same time reminding the Scots that they have not even been on the radar for decades.

The Tories are putting a lot of energy into floating the idea that they are prepared to spend billions on the bridge or tunnel instead of making the Protocol work. Either they are truly, monunentally stupid and taking this seriously, or they are hoping to be defeated in the next GE so that Labour will be left explaining to the DUP that none of the craziness is going to happen.

Sostenueto · 18/02/2021 06:56

🍷

DGRossetti · 18/02/2021 09:27

@Peregrina

But they needn't upgrade the whole rail network - the channel tunnel link was (eventually) built to the continental loading gauge, but no one bothered with the rest of the British network.The same would apply to a link in NI - a small spur to Belfast would be all they got.
I'm still waiting for the Birmingham and Manchester direct trains to Paris and beyond we were promised the Channel Tunnel would bring.
prettybird · 18/02/2021 09:36

Indeed Hmm The Channel Tunnel was built as UK "National Infrastructure", so it didn't contribute to the Barnett Formula. As such, Scotland was promised direct trains to Europe. There was even a Eurostar waiting room created in Central Station in preparation for those trains..... Hmm

Peregrina · 18/02/2021 09:37

I'm still waiting for the Birmingham and Manchester direct trains to Paris and beyond we were promised the Channel Tunnel would bring.

Yep. Also waiting for the electrification to Oxford to be finished. Promised in 2017 - paused since then. Got as far as Didcot.

But I am just getting completely sick of the Government blather - people have legitimate concerns and just get fobbed off with rubbish.

Eve · 18/02/2021 10:25

Has anyone who is proposing/ supporting this actually driven to Stranraer to get a ferry?

Its a 2.5 - 3hr awful journey from the Motorway at Carlisle , mostly single carriage road with some bits of dual carriageway and with so many HGVs to get stuck behind. Its also popular with mobile speed vans as so many people either rushing to get ferry or fed up stuck behind HGVs.

The road network would need a serious upgrade as well to make use of any bridge / tunnel.

Jason118 · 18/02/2021 10:32

Speaking of government blather

Westministers : Saving the Union
DGRossetti · 18/02/2021 10:36

£20 million for UK SMEs.

So just over £6 each ?

DGRossetti · 18/02/2021 10:38

Also started digging through

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispute_settlement_in_the_World_Trade_Organization

GaspodeWonderCat · 18/02/2021 10:46

Lord Frost appointed to cabinet. But I thought leaving the EU meant we got rid of unelected bureaucrats? Confused. Or does it not count if they are Boris's mates? [harumph -needs an icon].

DGRossetti · 18/02/2021 10:49

@GaspodeWonderCat

Lord Frost appointed to cabinet. But I thought leaving the EU meant we got rid of unelected bureaucrats? Confused. Or does it not count if they are Boris's mates? [harumph -needs an icon].
I wonder how many ministers for Brexit we will have had by 2025 ?
FatCatThinCat · 18/02/2021 11:03

@Jason118

Speaking of government blather
Lucky buggers. That's more than they allocated to support Brits living in the EU. They allocated us around £1.50 per person.
Eve · 18/02/2021 13:08

I thought Brexit was Gove’s job ... has he decided it’s too difficult or has Boris decided it’s too difficult for him.

DGRossetti · 18/02/2021 13:47

Quick digression, all jabbed up. Fantastically well organised system. From in to out was 18 minutes (plus 15 minutes waiting before driving, which we did in the car Smile). From temperature test to exit was 17 spaces in the queue, and there were 4 rooms performing the jabs. I estimated they were doing a jab a minute on average, meaning 8:30-6:00 with lunch was c. 500 a day ? Which the nurse that jabbed me said they were aiming for as a target.

If you've queued for an attraction at a theme park, it will probably seem very familiar Grin

They had organised a marquee at the exit for people who wanted to or had been advised to wait ... it was hard not to look for a bar Grin

The whole experience was so beautifully British lots of polite murmuring and zero drama.

God bless the NHS once again.

DGRossetti · 18/02/2021 13:56

www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/brexit-list-of-33-police-forces-deployed-to-kent-to-help-manage-traffic-chaos/18/02/

Police from more than 30 constabularies all over Britain have been redeployed to Kent to help the authorities manage Brexit traffic chaos, it has emerged.

Officers from as far afield as Gwent in Wales, Devon and Cornwall and Yorkshire have all been moved to the county to deal with the contingency plans brought in to deal with the change in rules when travelling to EU countries.

(contd)

PawFives · 18/02/2021 14:09

Great news on your vaccines DGR glad to hear it all went smoothly. I wonder if anyone else felt a tad wistful reading your ‘typically British’ description, like something from another time before all the divisive Brexit shite.