Westministenders: The Beginning of Negotiations

[RedToothBrush]

Transition has a few hours left.

Then negotiations start and trade stops.

Far from being over, there are huge numbers of issues that lay unresolved.

And businesses both now in the UK and EU will cease to trade with each other just because the red tape is such a pain.

So whilst people will celebrate and think things are 'done' that just shows how much people are paying attention.

It will be interesting to see people gradually realising what has been lost...

And that’s just the start, the base line. You need to demolish croneyism, nepotism, and on the other side beliefs about it being good enough for me so it’s good enough for you. Attitudes and class everywhere.

Yes Mayyoulive the social security net has been deliberately worn too thin.
That’s why we’ve suffered so very badly from the pandemic - 40,000 nurses too few, and people risking going to zero hours jobs because they’re skint, even with symptoms. Etc. We all know the reasons. You can’t defeat a challenge like the virus if you’re not looking after everybody.

Talking about privilege, this wee cartoon explains simply and succinctly how privilege is ingrained in our society

https://www.boredpanda.com/privilege-explanation-comic-strip-on-a-plate-toby-morris/?utmsource=google&utmmmedium=organic&utmcampaign=organic

"we shouldnt report that hospitals are sending out emails saying we are in disaster mode and should censor this" is my personal highlight on mn so far this year.

It's almost as if people want to live in a fictional reality and be shielded from the abuses, exploitation and neglect that has been caused by government because it doesn't affect them or might be upsetting for them to see.

This denialism of reality is bigger than fake news and isn't going away.

We know here on Westminstenders the importance of seeing reality even if its not palatable and more importantly why its so important we do see it because we know where it leads otherwise.

It does show that the need for these threads doesn't just evaporate over night.

We know that our relationship with the EU will be painted in a way which doesn't reflect reality. And we know why this is the case. And what its hiding.

Abuse of power.

So we need to keep on keeping on.

Nursing is a bloody good example actually. What was once unqualified work with full training on the job has become degree-entry only, requiring full time study costing £9k a year and expenses, with extra work required over the summer. Huge barriers to entry. I wanted to retrain in health. It is not possible with young kids unless you’re lucky enough to have family babysitters who can and will raise your kids for 3 years. Very few will be willing to take on that debt when housing costs are so high. Richer people either can ignore that debt or claim that isn’t real and doesn’t matter. They lie.

I fully agree MayYouLive.

Furthermore, one of the good chances had of people gaining an education in later life, namely the OU, has now for English students been forced by the Government to introduce high fees thus helping to close off another option. The devolved nations do subsidise the fees I think.

Absolutely demolish croneyism. How far would someone like Boris Johnson, supposedly clever, but bone idle, have got in life if he'd been from a disorganised family and ended up at the roughest school in the neighbourhood? He wouldn't have been a Lloyd George, who became PM after only attending an elementary school.

This denialism of reality is bigger than fake news and isn't going away.

In so many ways, this.

One thing I've noticed over the past few days is that rather than going away, the delivery of Brexit has actually made divisions worse. Definitely true here on Mumsnet where leaveurs just can't help themselves (we WON why can't those remoaners just SHUT UP) but also pretty much true on all other social media.

Scottish elections up next ... which won't contribute to more division at all. Oh no...

Another one finally delurking to say thanks for the threads. I'm usually several pages behind (and have been for 4.5 years i now realise! 😂) and so don't post, but I'm up to date today and i don't think anyone's posted this

twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1344592194930438144?s=19

I previously agreed with those disappointed in Starmer voting for the deal, but actually this twitter thread changed my mind - and gave me hope..

Also: first lorries have been turned away from Holyhead for not having the right paperwork.

Frictionless trade LMAO. Wherefore art thou, Internal markets bill?

On showjumping Fb pages reality is dawning along with lots of outrage ( I know it’s a niche area ) but it been advised transporting horses across channel just got significantly more expensive ( an additional £325 per horse to cover customs) plus lots and lots of paperwork plus £500 carnet fee in France per horse.

Lots spend the winter in Spain competing - grooms now also can’t get medical insurance at the moment to work at shows in Spain.

@Eve

On showjumping Fb pages reality is dawning along with lots of outrage ( I know it’s a niche area ) but it been advised transporting horses across channel just got significantly more expensive ( an additional £325 per horse to cover customs) plus lots and lots of paperwork plus £500 carnet fee in France per horse.

Lots spend the winter in Spain competing - grooms now also can’t get medical insurance at the moment to work at shows in Spain.

There will be a lot more of this when people realise how it impacts them personally.

Johnson claiming this deal as a personal victory?

Yeah that could get interesting.

FWIW, Starmer had a choice of a deal or no deal in practice. Regardless of how its spun thats the reality. And MPs should vote on that basis rather than anything else imho.

On showjumping Fb pages reality is dawning

I have long thought that it's the impact on pet movements that will most piss off middle class leavers.

@ArianaVenti

Another one finally delurking to say thanks for the threads. I'm usually several pages behind (and have been for 4.5 years i now realise! 😂) and so don't post, but I'm up to date today and i don't think anyone's posted this

twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1344592194930438144?s=19

I previously agreed with those disappointed in Starmer voting for the deal, but actually this twitter thread changed my mind - and gave me hope..

Interesting Twitter thread: I can see his point but Starmer could have achieved the same result by abstaining

As it is, the MSM is already making the unfortunately undeniably true statement that both parties voted for the deal And it means that the Conservatives and Brexiters will always be able to throw that fact back in Labour's face if/when Labour points out shortcomings in the deal.

That's why the Conservatives could never fully criticise Blair's illegal involvement in the Iraq War - as they'd voted for it too.

It also ignores the risk to the UK of its continued existence (as a few of the replies have pointed out).

@Mistigri

On showjumping Fb pages reality is dawning

I have long thought that it's the impact on pet movements that will most piss off middle class leavers.

I'm old enough to remember the rabies scare in the 70s (75, 76 ?)

Look familiar ?

I am old enough to remember the rabies scare me too, DGR
I also know a fair few competitive horsey types who voted Leave.

That's why the Conservatives could never fully criticise Blair's illegal involvement in the Iraq War - as they'd voted for it too.

Yeah, it damaged them for a generation, didn't it ?

prettybird (not sure how to quote post) good point, although tbf the main blame for the iraq war still fell on blair.

I think the thing that made me feel hopeful was that the EU have set up a route back that we've inherently signed up to. And it sounds like Starmer has recognised that. I think it's important that those of us who want to take the country forward in that direction understand the potential route and fight the right battles, rather than yesterday's, which seems to be the point he's making.

You make it sound like its JUST Labour who might look to this route.

I can well see many Conservatives including the government effectively uturn and aligning closer to the EU as much as possible going forward precisely because its publically seen that Brexit is 'done'. We know that hard line ERGers are not known for being up on details and reading finer print promptly.

When fallout starts to be seen what will a populist government do? They can either retreat further into nationalism or try and hide stuff discreetly under the carpet by uturns. This government is very good at both....

Ah, an alleged benefit of Brexit - we have abolished the tampon tax! According to the BBC, ’EU law required members to tax tampons and sanitary towels at 5%, treating period products as non-essential.’

This is then followed by a list of countries that don’t have tax on sanitary products, a list that includes Ireland

Can someone please explain?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55502252

Can someone please explain?

The explanation is that people who understand facts and value truth are not the intended audience for this utter bollocks.

Red good point! Perhaps that means we're currently as far from the EU as we'll go?

^Can someone please explain? [] www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55502252^

That's your problem right there ..////////\

@RedToothBrush

You make it sound like its JUST Labour who might look to this route.

I can well see many Conservatives including the government effectively uturn and aligning closer to the EU as much as possible going forward precisely because its publically seen that Brexit is 'done'. We know that hard line ERGers are not known for being up on details and reading finer print promptly.

When fallout starts to be seen what will a populist government do? They can either retreat further into nationalism or try and hide stuff discreetly under the carpet by uturns. This government is very good at both....

So it's the will of the people to be the ball in a toff game of ping-pong with the EU ?

Fuck that.