The Silence is Deafening

[Crankley]

For the last however long, I have read threads and posts by Remainers stating confidently that the Prime Minister wanted a No Deal, would get a No Deal. Here are just a few quotes. Some Remainers may recognise their own predictions:

'He is going to give us No Deal and then fuck off into the sunset with millons in bungs from his crooked mates,'

'I'm pretty certain on no deal...'

'I fully expect a No Deal Brexit.'

'Bojo will 'deliver' no deal and then F off into the sunset'

'Boris Johnson and your disingenuous divs - How dare you try and spin a NoDeal'

'He was elected to not get a deal and to make his supporters feel good about the fact the had stuck it to the man (or something).'

There are lots more if you want them.

Now he has obtained a deal, where are all the threads by remainers? Do any have the the guts to hold up their hand up and say 'I was wrong'?

@Peregrina

if they continue to seek employment in the host Member State and have a ‘genuine chance’ of finding work.

However, Member States may require a real link between the job seeker and the labour market of the Member State in question."

None of which invalidates my basic point that we could have asked people who came and made no effort or were completely unable to find work to leave, and chose not to.

"asked people to leave?" nah, nowhere near strong enough I'm afraid. Hopefully academic now anyway. Points based immigration system here we come.

Overall non-EU immigration to the UK is far higher than EU immigration

However -
"the numbers of EU migrants have increased more rapidly than non-EU migrants over the past decade"

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-an-overview/

None of the stats appear to be very accurate in any case - there is a note at the bottom of TatianaBis' chart;

Figures for 2001-2011 no longer accurate due to revisions but no alternative available.

Also, in the Times - April 2020;

"Tens of thousands more EU migrants than are officially in the UK have applied to settle after Brexit, figures suggest."

"The latest Home Office statistics show that 3.25 million EU nationals have applied for settled status in the UK after Brexit out of an estimated 3.4 million here in the year to June 2019. But migrants from several states in the bloc have applied in bigger numbers than the totals estimated to be here."

"By the end of last month [March] 171,000 Bulgarian citizens and 564,000 Romanians had sought settled or pre-settled status, which allows migrants to stay and work in the UK, compared with an estimated 109,000 Bulgarians and 457,000 Romanians who were officially resident in the year to June 2019."

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/more-eu-migrants-apply-to-stay-than-are-officially-here-w0dq20zff

This immigration stuff is a fig leaf for racism I'm afraid, unless you are straight up opposed to hostile environment policies (and virtually no one - either on the pro-Brexit blue Labour side, or the Tory side - has anything bad to say about the hostile environment).

Tbh I'm surprised that immigration is coming up again; I thought the new "we're not racist but" argument in favour of Brexit was "sovereignty".

That you fall into the trap of other Brexiters - your fear of inundation by Johnny Foreigner, in your case Johnny E. Europeans, far outweighs that number of actual migrants in your community.

Claiming to love your 'village' (of course you live in a village) for its diversity is directly contradicted by your desperation to shut out EU migrants.

I have a racist uncle in Devon who voted leave because he thinks the country is being overrun by foreigners. This despite living in a small village without any diversity whatsoever, the local Chinese takeaway is run by a white family. However I suspect his local hospital is probably staffed by foreign workers. He also believes that Sadiq Kahn is the devil but hasn't stepped foot in London in over a decade, he hates him for being muslim, 'woke' and having brown skin. It's revolting really.

I find the levelling up (or levelling down depending on how you want to look at it) agenda quite difficult to understand for many leave voting cities and towns that have struggled over the past 25-50 years through government policies and lack of investment. If they really want to see growth and prosperity then they need to accept that immigrants will flood the areas, your average person that ups sticks from their friends & family and moves hundreds and thousands of miles for a better future is not the type that is going to sit on their arse and claim benefits. They usually have huge amounts of ambition and drive which generally has a positive affect on the local area.

Goodness knows why people on these boards rate New Zealand so highly then - on account of its 'racist' points-based immigration system.

Non-EU immigration is still higher Clav and has been consistently higher for decades. EU immigration has slowed down since the referendum and many EU migrants have left.

In the year to Sept 2018 - Around 200,000 people from EU countries immigrated here & around 145,000 here emigrated elsewhere. So net migration from the EU was around 55,000.

None of the stats appear to be very accurate in any case - there is a note at the bottom of TatianaBis' chart

Of figures for 1991-2017, ending Sept 2018, only the 2001-2011 figures are no longer accurate due to having been revised.

When anti-immigrants are faced with hard facts, they can only fall back on the claim they are inaccurate. ie do not fit with their prejudices.

This immigration stuff is a fig leaf for racism I'm afraid

Agreed.

Tbh I'm surprised that immigration is coming up again; I thought the new "we're not racist but" argument in favour of Brexit was "sovereignty"

I'd suggest it's because the deal does not bring the promised sovereignty but I'm not convinced Leavers understand it sufficiently yet for that to be the case.

The UK will be importing agricultural labour by the tens of thousands for many years to come
as Brits are unable / unwilling to do it

those people will not come from countries without a tradition of growing the crops for which the skills are needed

and as the work is seasonal and itinerant
they will have to be from countries not too far away

south East Europe in fact

When anti-immigrants are faced with hard facts, they can only fall back on the claim they are inaccurate.

Oh I see - the Times is a racist newspaper as well (link above).

I'm not anti-immigrant - you can send over as many EU and non-EU qualified doctors and nurses to the UK as you like.

TatainiaBis, there's little point in me arguing my position with you as you are so determined to proclaim me racist, now you suggest my argument is bogus!
I want us, the UK to decide our own immigration policy, clear and simple. I don't think my view is in the least bit racist to not agree with the EU's FOM. I've never suggested that EU immigration has been at the expense of non EU immigration so I don't know where you get that idea. I have absolutely no problem with any European coming to live and work here but under our terms. I've no interest in shutting Europeans out I just want us to take back control.
I actually don't like the idea of any trade deal being predicated on FOM for their citizens so wouldn't be happy if we did such a deal with the Australians, New Zealanders or Canadians, even though my teens would love it!

U.K. expected to sign a continuity trade deal with Turkey tomorrow;

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-27/u-k-and-turkey-expected-to-sign-continuity-trade-deal-tuesday

At least Turkey will be able to join the EU in years to come - now that the UK won't be there waving its veto.

@Clavinova

When anti-immigrants are faced with hard facts, they can only fall back on the claim they are inaccurate.

Oh I see - the Times is a racist newspaper as well (link above).

I'm not anti-immigrant - you can send over as many EU and non-EU qualified doctors and nurses to the UK as you like.

The Times is a right wing newspaper as it goes, but the point it makes about estimated numbers is hardly rocket science.

Unfortunately this squirrel does not divert from the fact that non EU immigration is far higher than EU. That is an incontrovertible fact.

It's gracious of you to accept immigrants you perceive to be in your self-interest to do so. Personally I'd be happy to swap you, Cory, tedious Brexiters in general, for any EU immigrant whatever their line of work. I don't see what you add to this country.

I've never suggested that EU immigration has been at the expense of non EU immigration so I don't know where you get that idea

Really? -

Being against FOM has nothing to do with a racist view for the majority of leavers. I feel strongly that FOM within the EU is racist in itself in that it gives preferential treatment to mainly white Christians. I and my friends want immigrants to be able to come here what ever their creed or colour or country of origin

Can you at least keep track of the bollocks you talk?

I have a friend who became a single mother and had to stay home to look after her young family after a divorce, she now can't prove at the moment that she has 10 years employment to gain settled status so women are definitely penalised in this way which is daft.

Or maybe just take a moment to reflect that your action, your Leave vote has added to those others, which has enabled the State, acting in your name, 'the will of the people' to make this woman's life more difficult.

Yet you somehow expect them to adopt benign policies to the rest of the world, which they could have done at any time, had they chosen to do so.

TatianaBis
The Times is a right wing newspaper as it goes, but the point it makes about estimated numbers is hardly rocket science.

You quite clearly implied that the article in the Times was 'racist', not to mention those 'racist' New Zealanders with their points-based immigration system.

Unfortunately this squirrel does not divert from the fact that non EU immigration is far higher than EU. That is an incontrovertible fact.

Although Figure 1 in this link shows, "the numbers of EU migrants have increased more rapidly than non-EU migrants over the past decade."

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-an-overview/

Ah, another squirrel.

There are a number of racist commentators in the Times as it happens.

And I'm pretty sure most of the praise for New Zealand has been about their approach to dealing with Covid. I'm pretty sure nobody has eulogised about their immigration system...

I'm not anti-immigrant - you can send over as many EU and non-EU qualified doctors and nurses to the UK as you like.

How about the UK permanently lifts the cap on training UK students as doctors and gets serious about the nursing bursary?

I'm not anti-immigrant - you can send over as many EU and non-EU qualified doctors and nurses to the UK as you like.

But will they want to come if they can't guarantee a life over here? And if their families won't be allowed to come/stay here?

Clav so the UK, despite not being in Schengen and having complete control to record who comes in/out of the UK, has chosen not to do so?
What makes you think we will do better in future?

I'm not anti-immigrant - you can send over as many EU and non-EU qualified doctors and nurses to the UK as you like

What an imperialist attitude!
EU medics aren't coming here now and its just plain wrong to take medical staff from developing countries, Covid means these folk have increased their worth somewhat, the days of the UK snapping its fingers to get more nurses is over.

France and many others would veto Turkey joining plus they are looking east now, not west... their internal policies kind of rule them out in any case.....but you knew that didn't you?

How about the UK permanently lifts the cap on training UK students as doctors

Yes - if we can afford to.

gets serious about the nursing bursary

Personally, I think we should see whether this initiative works first before re-introducing a full bursary;

"All nursing students on courses from September 2020 will receive a payment of at least £5,000 a year which they will not need to pay back."

www.gov.uk/government/news/nursing-students-to-receive-5-000-payment-a-year

@Clavinova No I quite clearly implied that you are anti-immigrant.

The numbers of EU migrants may have increased more rapidly but they are still lower than non EU migrants.

Increased more rapidly does not mean increased to a higher number than.

France and many others would veto Turkey joining

How many 'racist' countries are there in the EU??

The UK does not properly record who comes in or out from ANYWHERE in the world.
It never has.
So all UK immigration figures are, in the technical parlance
Bollocks.

When Theresa may brought in the Hostile Environment
her estimates of the numbers of legal migrants to the UK
were a source of hilarity to many other nations

Sadly the Hostile Environment has led to significant numbers of illegal arrivals
working in slavery conditions
and adding to the UKs COVID risk

@Clavinova

France and many others would veto Turkey joining

How many 'racist' countries are there in the EU??

Classic Clav! with her selective quoting....

As i said, Turkey is ploughing its own path now, zero chance of joining EU

Turkey was making noises about joining the EEC back in the 1970s and had zero chance unless it started by cleaning up its Human Rights. But I do have a vague memory of one de Pfeffel of part Turkish stock making noises about them joining.