The Silence is Deafening

[Crankley]

For the last however long, I have read threads and posts by Remainers stating confidently that the Prime Minister wanted a No Deal, would get a No Deal. Here are just a few quotes. Some Remainers may recognise their own predictions:

'He is going to give us No Deal and then fuck off into the sunset with millons in bungs from his crooked mates,'

'I'm pretty certain on no deal...'

'I fully expect a No Deal Brexit.'

'Bojo will 'deliver' no deal and then F off into the sunset'

'Boris Johnson and your disingenuous divs - How dare you try and spin a NoDeal'

'He was elected to not get a deal and to make his supporters feel good about the fact the had stuck it to the man (or something).'

There are lots more if you want them.

Now he has obtained a deal, where are all the threads by remainers? Do any have the the guts to hold up their hand up and say 'I was wrong'?

My reaction: Obviously there will be new barriers, thats obviously true.

This was most emphatically not said by the Leave campaign at the time of the Referendum. It was all going to be hunky dory, we were going to get all the benefits but have none of the obligations. Fitting from a man like Boris Johnson, who was criticised by his Eton housemaster for thinking that obligations didn't apply to him.

Then the Obs starts talking about the EU being "much more than an economic project". I suppose thats true too, it shouldnt' be IMO but it became so.

If you read what was printed at the time Ted Heath took us in to the EEC you will see that this was always the case.

Then they talk about "costs to personal freedoms", sorry Observer, talk to me about the costs of something I actually value. I value my personal freedom hugely, freedom to vote for reprentatives to make the laws that govern me for one. Freedom to study, live, love in another country, no, those things are of no value or use to me whatsoever.

Bully for you. But think of the people nurses, doctors, midwives, architects and other professionally qualified people who found that a period spend in an EU country enhanced their experience and made them better at their profession, but now find that their qualifications no longer count. So if you don’t want a freedom, no one should have it? Is that what you are saying? It’s a very dog in the manger attitude.

This is not the country I was born into 40 ish years ago so I’m with you there. But come in, own up, who really voted for Sunak’s Freeports? Tax havens with no employment rights? When did we get a referendum on those?

Where's op?

On Ted Heath and the EEC Peregrina you make a fair point though i wasn't alive in 1973, far less of age to be able to read, or to vote

I agree also on your point about the Leave campaign not being explicit about new barriers. Kinda depened on what sort of Brexit outcome was sought but IMO there were always going to be barriers of some kind.

You seem to want a very different society from the one you've experienced over the last 10 years or so. I want a different one from the one i've known for the last 25.

Surely EU laws and regulations don't cause that? I've not seen a single EU law that could affect that but I'm happy to be proven right.

I see the FPTP electoral system and the 'democracy' we have that still resembles what we had in the 1700's being more responsible for that.

The UK already has the most draconian anti union laws in the EU. Brexit will cement this and lead to further attacks on workers rights. Supported by anyone from Farage to Mogg to Johnson. Watch for another Business bill pushed through parliament in the next couple of years, if anyone has read 'Britainnia Unchained' then you'll know what the current Tory front bench think about workers rights.

It’s strange that a lot of Brexit types constantly talk about this being a win for the working class when firstly it’s obviously not and secondly they ultimately despise the working class and want us to have as few rights as possible.

@TatianaBis

The intelligent Leave voters I know (and I don’t know many) have all conceded that it was indeed a horrible mistake.

My experience too. They deeply regret it.

I really would recommend looking at the Electoral Reform Society, there’s loads of info there. Lots on this page alone. www.electoral-reform.org.uk/latest-news-and-research/publications/the-2019-general-election-voters-left-voiceless/

I’m sorry to be a tiresome vote but I’m slightly worried about falling foul of mumsnet’s sock puppeting rules so can I sidle in a namechange - my other one is Pepperwort. I change regularly but kept that for this part of the site. I’m tired of having to remember to change. www.electoral-reform.org.uk/latest-news-and-research/publications/the-2019-general-election-voters-left-voiceless/

Bore! Goodness. My fat fingers can’t cope with little keyboards.

Kinda depened on what sort of Brexit outcome was sought but IMO there were always going to be barriers of some kind.

Well unless you are Boris Johnson or Gove and I am pretty sure you are not, I don't think your opinion will count for any more than mine.

So @LouiseCollins28 what do you think the Government will do differently now we are no longer in the EU and how will it benefit you?

Having just sat down again at my laptop since originally writing a general post re Sally067's ridiculous assertion that an Observer editorial might be correct about leavers and our views.
Firstly I was never deceived by the Leave campaign. Neither was I mislead by the £350m to the NHS on the bus, although I wish they had used a different slogan.
The 'trade deal' in it's self is the easy part but the EU insisted in demanding full access to our waters and that arbitration be done by their courts, nether of which have ever been in a trade deal and wouldn't discuss trade before getting their way with these. Far more is made of export paperwork than will be in actuality. Firstly far too much is made of the great complexity of any new export paperwork, many companies that export to the EU also export to other parts of the world so are very accustomed to export procedures. Most companies that export are exporting in one certain field such are machinery manufacturing, fruit and veg, fish etc. So once they have put the new forms on their system it won't be difficult to transpose them for each cargo.

The idea that leave politics is small minded is something I don't recognise. Any leavers I know want Britain to become more globalist not less. Then there is the suggestion that we were mislead with racist dog whistles! Again another misconception. Being against FOM has nothing to do with a racist view for the majority of leavers. I feel strongly that FOM within the EU is racist in itself in that it gives preferential treatment to mainly white Christians. I and my friends want immigrants to be able to come here what ever their creed or colour or country of origin. The EU is an extremely protectionist rescheme in it's trade policies. Blocking out so many possible emerging nations in Africa for instance, keeping their economies down and their countries not worth investing in as any trade with their nearest economically vibrant neighbours was blocked. No wonder so many economic migrants are flooding into Europe from North Africa.
I certainly don't want any reduction in our standards, be it welfare of animals, our food production, employment standards or environmental standards.You just need to look at the government's new replacement for CAP and it's complete environmental focus to see that.
I don't recognise the idea that Tories think Brexit will be the cure for all our ills but I do think it's a chance to redirect our focus on promoting environmentally friendly industry, transport and energy to power the UK of the future. We want to be leaders not followers.
Lastly, please don't all be mislead by the SNP and the Scots wish for independence. Believe me not all Scots want it, 1m of us voted for Brexit and many many have little respect for Nicola Sturgeon and her government who totally responsible for the dreadful state Scotland is in at the moment. NS is very good at all the talk but she's not so good at the walk.

Any leavers I know want Britain to become more globalist not less
by closing borders ?

I feel strongly that FOM within the EU is racist in itself in that it gives preferential treatment to mainly white Christians
Tell that to the folks who developed the Pfizer vaccine

I wrote a post and it disappeared so apologies if this appears twice.

Corcory the Leave side has won. You say that the EU is demanding access to our waters. Have they achieved that because Johnson and his team were lousy negotiators who caved in at the last moment? Waffling in Latin isn't much use when negotiating.

As for the EU's immigration policies. This in no way affected Westminster's immigration policies to the rest of the world, so if you have a complaint about how this country is not open to RoW citizens then this is where you need to direct your efforts.

As for Africa - if we were minded to promote policies which supported African trade then we have now firmly shut the door on our opportunity to influence 27 other countries. I don't see that as a bonus myself.

As for the SNP - they have a lot of support in Scotland and their electoral success in Holyrood does not depend on a FPTP system to distort the results.

I feel strongly that FOM within the EU is racist in itself in that it gives preferential treatment to mainly white Christians

Tell that to the folks who developed the Pfizer vaccine

Also tell the UK Britons, the children of the Windrush generation who have fallen foul of the UKs hostile environment. Mostly black and brown skinned people.

Oh dear!

EU judges' orders will be enforceable in the UK in relation to the bloc's programmes and activities, such as Horizon, it has emerged in the Brexit deal.

I feel strongly that FOM within the EU is racist in itself in that it gives preferential treatment to mainly white Christians. I and my friends want immigrants to be able to come here what ever their creed or colour or country of origin.

How completely ignorant not to be aware of EU’s multitude of races and religions. France has the highest % of Muslims in the west - 5 million in total, roughly the same number as the entire population of Scotland.

Immigrants can and do come here from all over the world. That’s a totally bogus trying-not-to-look-racist argument.

Generally the immigrants that Leavers most object to is not the white European ones. So you’re in bad company.

ListeningQuietly - nobody's closing borders! and what's the fact that the scientists that came up with the Pfizer vaccine are Turkish got to do with it?
Peregrina, I was asked to give a more detailed opinion on the Observer editorial I know leave won! The deal we have on fishing is not as good as I'd have liked but it's nothing like what the EU wanted.
The point is we want the UK's immigration policy to be more inclusive of everyone to give people in other countries a chance to come here, be it for fruit picking or as professionals.
We tried to influence EU policy from within, what we can do now is trade freely with these countries ourselves and promote investment in these areas, which as a financial hub we are well placed to do.
Peregrina, if you were a Scottish and even admitted you voted Tory or leave you have no idea what sort of abuse you would get. The division in Scotland is appalling. I just hope we will all come out and vote come May 21.
Windrush was a dreadful and really stupid thing to cock up but it has nothing to do with FOM from the EU. I want people from all over the world to be able to come here no mater what their colour.

nobody's closing borders!

Er yeah we are effectively. You’re about to discover the difference between tariff free trade and CU/SM/FOM for goods and services.

As detailed in the EU Summary and also on the U.K. gov.uk, full customs checks and procedures will still apply.

Free trade just means tariff-free (and quota-free) not customs free.

The customs procedures will include SPS checks on agriculture, customs declaration, catch certificates for fish, a load of other licenses and certs depending on the product, customs handling & clearance fees, ATA Carnets, VAT, and a whole heap of other ‘red tape’ NTBs (non tariff barriers).

The deal does include customs cooperation and simplification agreement which might help with some congestion, particularly industrial goods, but they will still all need declaration forms, scans and clearance.

The main congestion will be with lorries transporting food - live animals, meat, fish, dairy, plants, drinks, processed food, etc.

The Rules of Origin will also add to the problems. In the CU-SM we shared the same trade deals, which meant that between EU & UK we could also have customs and tariff free trade for all countries we had free trade deals with.

Now we're not in the CU-SM, the EU doesn't recognise our trade deals, so tariffs will apply to any goods traded that are 40% or more not of UK or EU origin, even if we've both got free trade deals with those countries (Japan, Canada, S Korea, Mexico, etc.)

The deal we have on fishing is not as good as I'd have liked but it's nothing like what the EU wanted.

I think you will find that it is much nearer to what the EU wanted, so this does not show Johnson's negotiating skills in a good light.

Windrush was a dreadful and really stupid thing to cock up but it has nothing to do with FOM from the EU. I want people from all over the world to be able to come here no mater what their colour.

I never said it did have anything to do with FoM from the EU. What I am pointing out is that the whole business showed up the UK in an extremely bad light, and is not a good advert for a country which is apparently welcoming to all comers.Think about the image it presents - if you are a black Briton who has lived here for 50 odd years, you can still be thrown out. Would you necessarily want to take your chance here as a black non-Briton? I repeat though that you need to have your discussion with Westminster.

No I am not Scottish - but at one time the Tories were well represented in Scotland. Why aren't they now? The same can also be asked of Labour and to a lesser extent LibDem.

"I feel strongly that FOM within the EU is racist in itself in that it gives preferential treatment to mainly white Christians. I and my friends want immigrants to be able to come here what ever their creed or colour or country of origin."

As TatianaBis states" Immigrants can and do come here from all over the world. That’s a totally bogus trying-not-to-look-racist argument."

Funny how so many of the vox pops showed ignorant leavers saying they were voting leave to keep the Muslims out!

It's very likely that those in Corcory's own circle share her views. With the best will in the world I doubt whether she runs to 17 million friends, so she can't possibly speak for all Leavers.

@SouthDownsLass - I refer you to my post on page 1, at 12:48.

the 'democracy' we have that still resembles what we had in the 1700's

If you seriously think that, I suggest you go away and read some history. Pay special attention to the years 1829, 1832, 1867, 1884, 1885, 1911 and 1918.

TitianaBis - Most EU immigrants in the UK who have come on mass are from Eastern Europe, white and christian. I'm not completely ignorant thanks very much! I do know there are a lot of Muslims in France, I've been there many times, my Step daughter was a student in France and had French Muslim friends over here for Christmas. I want to see an even playing field for a more diverse community of people to come here. I want to make it easier for people with the right skills or abilities to come here. I am not 'trying to not look racists' as you suggest.The economy of many Eastern European countries has changed substantially since they joined the EU so don't have the same 'need' to come here to work but we could be helping other communities throughout the world.
Peregrina - The fact that the Windrush generation of immigrants were black is never going to show the UK in a good light but we must show everyone we are better than that.
Cohenlover Just because some ignorant idiots thought Brexit would keep muslins out doesn't make it the view of the majority. I mean how many Vox pops of them did you actually see, or did the same idiots keep getting shown as they made such good press?
Peregrina - I could say the same about you and every other remainer on here, we are all expressing our own views.