Can any genuine non-goady posters who voted for Brexit answer some of the following questions please?

[Spittingchestnuts]

I would prefer to avoid a goady thread if at all possible.

I'm British but I live outside the UK and I'm interested to know - now Brexit is "done" (almost) - why current discussions about it on Mumsnet and elsewhere on UK sm and in the press, are not more focused on what the UK will be doing after 1st January when the transition period comes to an end should we have no deal, and even if we do? (I'm thinking more about policy and direction rather than possible goods delays at borders but those are important too.) Is anyone who voted for Brexit prepared to admit that they are worried with the New Year looming so close and so little information coming from the government?

Some regular pro-Brexit posters on here seem to have blind faith in Boris Johnson's government and a strong belief that life will automatically be better outside the EU despite the fact that, apart from a few vague witterings about greater flexibility and increased sovereignty, we almost have next to no detailed information about it. The lack of detailed facts available is scary actually. As far as I can understand it, Brexiteers voted for a "vague notion" sketched in the briefest of terms by a proven liar and his cohorts with next to no detail or shading. If you think this interpretation is unfair, can you give me more details as to why? What concrete things did you vote for as opposed to the things you voted against?

To date, the UK government have been very vocal about what they don't want and how they don't want to be shackled to EU rules, but have been less forthcoming about what they do want and how these changes wiil translate in to legislation. We've rejected rules and policies that are roughly aligned with a Christian liberal, centre-leaning social democratic model that focuses on high product standards and good basic employment protections, so where will we go now? In a different direction presumably?

So what will the laws and policies be that distinguish ourselves from this EU mould? 52% of UK citizens voted for them so can any of you please explain them? We will presumably be steering to the right of where we are now? Given that Brexit was championed by the right wing of the Conservative party who want lower taxes, less state intervention, I would say that that's a logical conclusion, but is no one particularly alarmed by this prospect? Can anyone who voted for Brexit but doesn't view themselves as particularly right wing , explain this to me?

I know it is said that some Brexiteers voted for improved public services, and for more money being invested in the NHS etc? Can anyone explain how Boris will manage to recruit more nurses, more police, and have better environmental standards, while presiding over a low tax economy or "Singapore-on-Thames"? Does no one recognise a potential conflict between these two positions?

And now we want to trade more with non-EU countries that are geographically further away, how will be, practically and logistically, manage to do this without undermining current UK efforts to be more environmentally friendly?

And what about the "small" matter of Scotland voting to remain by 62%? And Northern Ireland by 55.8%? Is anyone who voted for Brexit even mildly concerned about what affect a Conservative government, based in Westminster, imposing a divergence away from Europe they didn't want, on citizens of Scotland and N.Ireland, will have on the unity of the UK ?

It's probably too much to hope for but I would love some non-goady genuine pro-Brexit posters to explain some of this to me. As I love and miss the UK, and have lots of family there, and there are 20 days until the new year, these questions are occupying my thoughts and keeping me awake at night.

Hurrah! Thank you LouiseCollins28 I appreciate a Leaver being prepared to nail their colours to the mast as it were. BBL and look forward to reading both case scenarios.

(Before responding I mean.)

LouiseCollins28

Much of what you want happens right now in Germany, unless we move to PR, we don't have accountable politicians.

Not sure about savers stuff though, all economies rely on consumerism, so you want more manufacturing? so if we save who will buy what we make in sufficient quantities to improve the tax take to fund the other stuff you want.

@Peregrina

Many of those things are perfectly desirable, but I can't see the present government choosing to implement them.

Just one example - the EU never stopped us investing in railways- Governments have chosen not to invest.

The sheer volume of goods that we see have Made In China written on them, doesn't make me think that we were ever stopped from trading with the rest of the World.

Fair point Perigrina as I said, post 1/2 what my "hopeful" one of what I hoped would happen after leaving. I'm also totally aware that far from all the things i've talked about required us to leave the EU, but that's not the question I was asked.

What I think might actually happen, will follow in post 2. I'll leave it to others to judge whether my "hopeful" or my "likeliest" posts are closer to reality as it plays out.

My children will be studying in the EU for free or for relatively low fees
So you’re obviously wealthy enough to pay their living costs, because you can’t get a student loan if you study in the EU. Most children have to study in the UK so they can get a student loan to support themselves. The poor can’t afford to study abroad because they need that loan.

we must agree to disagree over whether Brexit will being the improvements that those voters hoped for or not
The sad fact is, most of the issues could have been addressed without Brexit. Unfortunately our government failed to do so, leading people to vote Leave because it was the only way to make their voices heard.

This is my “likeliest reality” answer . Post 2/2

I actually do think we’ll strike a trade deal with the EU. I expect we will remain within the regulatory orbit of the EU, probably permanently. That doesn’t mean we’ll follow every line of EU law but its influence will endure. I expect we’ll have some tricky conversations with the EU on divergence and tariffs in the future but generally I think we’ll be close to what they have.

In short, I think there will be a lot less to distinguish post Brexit Britain from the EU than people currently think. On trade particularly, I do think as time moves on the gap may widen, since the EU’s legal system and the UK one are fundamentally different in approach, but for now, not much change.

I think the country actually will get greener, frankly I don’t think we have a choice about it. However, I can see those taking decisions about who to back to transition us towards that backing established producers from overseas, e.g. EDF for power, and so more UK taxpayers money flows overseas.

I expect we will ally ourselves more closely militarily with the USA, irrespective of whether the President is a Democrat or a Republican. I can see little other choice on this.

I expect there will be a trade deal with the USA announced with much fanfare too. I also expect this will be much more limited than people fear. US agri businesses I can see being given access to UK markets with lower or negligible tariffs. I can’t see the NHS being sold to US healthcare providers, I know people fear this strongly, but I really think the NHS is close to untouchable right now.

I don’t expect us to adopt the US tax and employment model. I think there will be some divergence from the EU model as theirs develops, but I can’t see adoption of US practice. On employment rights I don’t think the electorate would wear it. On tax Britain is simply too small for local taxes to supplement lower federal taxes as they do in the USA, I think.

I think Britain will control her borders more tightly, but not anywhere near as tightly as some leave voters hope and expect. EU immigration may fall but that from other parts of the world will likely rise. I expect the EU immigration issue will die down but that from other parts of the world could cause more similar issues.

I am confident there will be investment in the north and other under supported areas, which I’ll welcome very much. However I don’t expect it will reach anything like the scale required to reverse the decline. The key issue will be who benefits, if the benefits are even shared with investors in London then expect more resentment, big time!

I expect coastal communities will gain some small benefit from increased fishing rights, but are we going back to a huge UK trawler fleet fishing out of places like Hull and Grimbsy? I very much doubt it. We know much more about overfishing than we did 50 or 100 years ago and even if we can catch more I hope we’ll have the sense to realise that rapidly increasing the catch overall will diminish stocks further.

I don’t think we’ll be ditching the EU’s social model wholesale. I really don’t think enough of the electorate wants that, and if our leaders try it, they’ll be gone at the next election. The number of people who support a “Britannia Unchained” Britain is pretty small IMO, even if those people are very powerful.

Who we elect will matter more than ever, but it won’t be the be all and end all. We could see more rich foreigners make their homes here as lower personal taxes makes us an attractive destination, but can we seriously compete with places like Monaco, for example, I doubt it.

One follow up question people would ask then is…. given this is Louise’s likeliest outcome, is it all worth it? My answer would still be yes. I care on a cellular level who makes our laws and how I can exercise what small measure of power I have to remove them if I don’t like what they are doing. I am prepared to give up a heck of a lot for that (others opinions will differ, of course) but there's my post Brexit prediction.

@LouiseCollins28 I actually quite like your wants for the future.
I am a bit scared of nuclear power, I must say. But I do not much about it.
I think UK has plenty of potential for wind power, and waves power- this last one does not seem very popular, I may need to read about the cons for it.
Also, again, fearsome of a closer military alliance with USA. It seems to go from war to war campaign. But it is something that is already happening.
And I really really want the NHS out of private hands. I do hope it remains paid by out taxes, and free for us all when we need it.
More manufacturing, international trade and accountability on politics are on my top wish list!

But they get sneered at for being middle class do gooders

Peregrina you accusing someone else of sneering is the sheep calling the goat hairy arse.
On the Westminsterenders threads you sneer and deride - or join in with the others sneering - at anyone who disagrees with you on Brexit.

I can’t see the NHS being sold to US healthcare providers, I know people fear this strongly, but I really think the NHS is close to untouchable right now

Unbelievable how many NHS services are now run by the private sector.
I don't understand your comment that the NHS is untouchable.

since the EU’s legal system and the UK one are fundamentally different in approach, but for now, not much change.

The UK does not have one system. It has two - England, Wales and N Ireland, plus the Scottish system. The latter I think is more allied with continental systems.

I am personally baffled why you want close military alliance with the USA. I am thankful that we never got directly involved in the Vietnam war, and question what benefit we gained by getting involved in Iraq. As well as leaving Iraq in a mess.

@Peregrina

since the EU’s legal system and the UK one are fundamentally different in approach, but for now, not much change.

The UK does not have one system. It has two - England, Wales and N Ireland, plus the Scottish system. The latter I think is more allied with continental systems.

I am personally baffled why you want close military alliance with the USA. I am thankful that we never got directly involved in the Vietnam war, and question what benefit we gained by getting involved in Iraq. As well as leaving Iraq in a mess.

Peregrina re military alliance, here is why, as plain as I can put it. Here is where we find out who our enduring friends truly are. Here's a clue, they aren't Europeans.

www.abmc.gov/Cambridge

There's a lot I can agree with, in @LouiseCollins28 view (the ideal version)
However, for that to come true, I strongly believe that we will need to devolve more power and money from Westminister to the other areas of the UK (English regions and countries), along with an overhaul of how we elect our MPs. I would love to see a decent PR system that stops the current trend of wasted votes in safe seats.

Agree with LouiseCollins too - many of her points/wishlist are similar to mine and quite a few other PPs here.

Perhaps when all the angst and anger has subsided a bit, some of us can help shape the post-Brexit UK to match these common ideals?

Not based on history and the past - but forward thinking - more sustainable, 'greener' and less based on supply-chains and 'consumerism?

You're going to have to work very hard to stop people being angry about this. And it isn't my responsibility to fix it.

@LouiseCollins28
whatnow with the cemetery?

Without a fig to remainer feelings, leavers have taken away remainers european identity, rights to live, work, travel in the EU (with min hassle) and made med insurance more expensive.
Destroyed the dreams of around 500k people with homes in France (and the UK) (ranging from a chalet to boat to a chateau) and cost them a fortune as they wont be able to sell.

Tried to wreck peace in N.I. ignored Scotland, taken billions away from regional funding, made EU citizens feel 2nd rate, caused a 5% to 10% rise in food prices, taken billions out of the economy in a hit that the BOE say may be worse that CV.......

As far as i'm concerned they can fuck right off with "how to build a better country"

I leave people to feel their own anger, and right now, given where we are currently, there would be little point in trying to placate any Angry UK Remain Voter at the moment.

Nor would it be worthwhile trying to offer any platitudes or placations in the near future either,

You're Angry and Very, Very Cross - which I'm sure you already know can be a very self-destructive path to follow if you let the Anger take hold of you.

I started a Fuck Em Part 2 Thread on AIBU if any PPs want to go over and vent their spleen.

Oh my god people need to get over it , do your own research if you want to know.
Nothing is going to change no matter how many threads go on mumnset

leavers have taken away remainers european identity, rights to live, work, travel in the EU (with min hassle) and made med insurance more expensive.
Destroyed the dreams of around 500k people with homes in France (and the UK) (ranging from a chalet to boat to a chateau) and cost them a fortune as they wont be able to sell.
Given that a lot of Leavers were in deprived areas and especially in parts of the north, why do you think they care about Remainers ability to travel, the value of their holiday homes, or their medical insurance? They’re things that many people couldn’t even dream of affording, so why should they give a shit about someone else’s access to them?

A lot of Leavers were comfortably off and in the south of England, the ones who are wealthy enough to put up with food price hikes, but not in the mega rich yacht owning categories. They are more likely to be the second home owners in France and Spain and may now find that their opportunities to go and stay there for extended periods have been curtailed.

But my point still stands. Why should I care that people who are rich enough to own a holiday home can’t go there any more, when I can’t afford a holiday home myself?

Turn the question round: what do you want Johnson to do for you? This is the man who whines about not being able to manage on a £150,000 salary.

still don't get the cemetery bit....

@Spittingchestnuts

FUSOI I still fail to see how making the country economically poorer, people losing jobs, food prices rising, potential shortages of drugs, less money in the economy, is going to improve the situation for the most vulnerable in society?

And you consistently fail to address how you would proceed in future if you were in power? What sort of country do you want ithe UK to be in relation to Europe (which is what this thread is about)? How do you see the UK's position in the world post -Brexit? Someone has to come up with some concrete ideas at some point.

Although you don't believe it, I do understand the reasons why people voted for Leave were v different reasons (often wholly unconnected with issues relating to the EU but were nevertheless v strongly held views and continue to be) . The problem with this is , that if Brexit or no deal Brexit means trading wealth for sovereignty eg 10% reduction in GDP , then we will all be poorer and proportionately those people voting for Brexit for a better life will be further affected and disappointed. What alternative in relation to Europe do you suggest?

Because there is nothing to see.

The country being economially rich certainly didn't improve their lot. The 2008 crisis which was made worse by Browns & BOE management of the UK mortgage market place with 10 times earnings 125% mortgages etc. has been forgotten.

In case you have forgotten we have record.
Homelessness
Poverty
Inequality
Foodbanks
Reduced Services
Health Access
Zero Hour Contracts
etc.

The disadvantage didn't profit from the boom, but certainly paid the biggest price in stagnating wages, benefits freeze 30% rise in VAT etc.

Sovereignty doesn't matter when you can't put food on the table, not a strong reason with most voters I know.

Pst... let you into a secret it doesn't matter what I would like to see, because nothing will fundamentally change for a lot of people. Nothings changed since the vote.

You go on about jobs etc. but ignore the massive elephant in the room is that the economy is on live support anyway prior to Brexit or C19.

What the Brexit vote did show is that politicians do what they want and voting is a waste of time and until we have a reset of the politicians.

New Tory, Coalition Governments proved it doesn't matter what label is on the can its the same putrid meat inside, same agenda, same failing policies, same result.

Depressing but unfortunately true.

You go on about jobs etc. but ignore the massive elephant in the room is that the economy is on live support anyway prior to Brexit or C19.

That’s true.

But just because the status quo is bad, it doesn’t mean that it can’t become far worse.

This kind of reasoning is like breaking an arm and saying: “I’ll let you in on a little secret - Your left arm is already broken. We may may as well just break the right one as well.”