Can any genuine non-goady posters who voted for Brexit answer some of the following questions please?

[Spittingchestnuts]

I would prefer to avoid a goady thread if at all possible.

I'm British but I live outside the UK and I'm interested to know - now Brexit is "done" (almost) - why current discussions about it on Mumsnet and elsewhere on UK sm and in the press, are not more focused on what the UK will be doing after 1st January when the transition period comes to an end should we have no deal, and even if we do? (I'm thinking more about policy and direction rather than possible goods delays at borders but those are important too.) Is anyone who voted for Brexit prepared to admit that they are worried with the New Year looming so close and so little information coming from the government?

Some regular pro-Brexit posters on here seem to have blind faith in Boris Johnson's government and a strong belief that life will automatically be better outside the EU despite the fact that, apart from a few vague witterings about greater flexibility and increased sovereignty, we almost have next to no detailed information about it. The lack of detailed facts available is scary actually. As far as I can understand it, Brexiteers voted for a "vague notion" sketched in the briefest of terms by a proven liar and his cohorts with next to no detail or shading. If you think this interpretation is unfair, can you give me more details as to why? What concrete things did you vote for as opposed to the things you voted against?

To date, the UK government have been very vocal about what they don't want and how they don't want to be shackled to EU rules, but have been less forthcoming about what they do want and how these changes wiil translate in to legislation. We've rejected rules and policies that are roughly aligned with a Christian liberal, centre-leaning social democratic model that focuses on high product standards and good basic employment protections, so where will we go now? In a different direction presumably?

So what will the laws and policies be that distinguish ourselves from this EU mould? 52% of UK citizens voted for them so can any of you please explain them? We will presumably be steering to the right of where we are now? Given that Brexit was championed by the right wing of the Conservative party who want lower taxes, less state intervention, I would say that that's a logical conclusion, but is no one particularly alarmed by this prospect? Can anyone who voted for Brexit but doesn't view themselves as particularly right wing , explain this to me?

I know it is said that some Brexiteers voted for improved public services, and for more money being invested in the NHS etc? Can anyone explain how Boris will manage to recruit more nurses, more police, and have better environmental standards, while presiding over a low tax economy or "Singapore-on-Thames"? Does no one recognise a potential conflict between these two positions?

And now we want to trade more with non-EU countries that are geographically further away, how will be, practically and logistically, manage to do this without undermining current UK efforts to be more environmentally friendly?

And what about the "small" matter of Scotland voting to remain by 62%? And Northern Ireland by 55.8%? Is anyone who voted for Brexit even mildly concerned about what affect a Conservative government, based in Westminster, imposing a divergence away from Europe they didn't want, on citizens of Scotland and N.Ireland, will have on the unity of the UK ?

It's probably too much to hope for but I would love some non-goady genuine pro-Brexit posters to explain some of this to me. As I love and miss the UK, and have lots of family there, and there are 20 days until the new year, these questions are occupying my thoughts and keeping me awake at night.

I think a lot of the brexit vote was a vote against a status quo and establishment that people felt disenfranchised by and not all that much about brexit. As you say there wasn't much detail given about what brexit would actually look like.

But my point still stands. Why should I care that people who are rich enough to own a holiday home can’t go there any more, when I can’t afford a holiday home myself?
Your point being you don't care about anyone who is better off than you? Rather selfish, don't you think? If you heard os someone dying in a plane crash would you say "well what do I care I can't afford to fly?" Your moral compass seems to be entirely based on "does it affect me"? Btw I can't afford a holiday home either but I still sympathise with people in that position.

Without a fig to remainer feelings, leavers have taken away remainers european identity, rights to live, work, travel in the EU (with min hassle) and made med insurance more expensive.
Destroyed the dreams of around 500k people with homes in France (and the UK) (ranging from a chalet to boat to a chateau) and cost them a fortune as they wont be able to sell.

You mean we didn't vote with the overprivileged enclave of rich middle class southerners who popped across the channel regularly to their second (?third) homes. Oh, boohoo.
(sorry for the sarcasm - I was going to make a sensible post but this just got to me)

Still with the fucking holiday homes crap. Freedom of Movement isn't about the gap yah fercrissakes. It give kids from impoverished backgrounds the chance to experience life abroad. Even if that life abroad is no more than working in a caff or a bar whilst sharing a flat with a bunch of others doing the same kind of job. And taking it from there or going no further.
Grinds my fucking gears to hear people still wittering on about FOM being just for the middle classes.

Me too Bellinsurge! I work with (some very poor) university students and Erasmus has given so many of them amazing opportunities that they would never have been able to afford otherwise. This gives them such a step up and allows them to compete in the job market with people who have had thousands spent on their education since they were very little. It really is an amazing experience but more than that it is the disadvantaged students who gain the most. The rich kids get to do it anyway. When I went off to do a year of Erasmus in Italy many years ago I had never even been to Italy. My parents couldn't afford expensive holidays or ski weeks or gap years! Many young people are in that position and taking away their right to work and study is just one more way to increase the gap between rich and poor. Nobody should be crowing about it.

My dd has done exactly that bellinisurge We're not wealthy. She worked in cafes and pubs to gather money and experience, and took off across Europe to find work. All pretty much exactly as you described.

FUSOI I am responding to you again because I wholeheartedly agree that the list of things you mention ARE important and no I haven't forgotten:

-Homelessness
-Poverty
-Inequality
-Foodbanks
-Reduced Services
-Health Access
-Zero Hour Contracts
etc.

I have agreed with you over four or five posts that the situation regarding these issues is utterly scandalous. The question is, which you repeatedly avoid or fail to answer, is how is being outside of the EU and making the UK economically poorer, going to help the above problems? As jj90914 said very wisely, things may be bad now, but that doesn't mean it is impossible for them to get much, much worse.

You are repeating the same (as you admit) depressing message again and again and yet you offer no ideas about solutions.

At least the European Union is researching these issues and is at least attempting to address poverty and social exclusion:

ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Living_conditions_in_Europe_-_poverty_and_social_exclusion

ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Income_poverty_statistics&oldid=440992

www.coe.int/en/web/compass/poverty

www.energypoverty.eu/

Now it is well known and widely acknowledged that there have been many acknowledged problems with the European Strategy and not NEARLY enough progress has been made, but at least the EU is highlighting the issue and driving initiatives forward in this area, with lessons being learned and know-how being exchanged in order to make future improvements.

Also, from my own personal experience of living outside the UK in two different European countries and visiting a third very regularly and volunteering in various capacities; if you are underprivileged it really does make a positive difference living in countries where the transport is state subsidised, where the social benefits are more generous, where taxes are higher, where the health care is better (yes you have to pay but the system operates on state subsidised means tested insurance which is on the whole very equitable) and there is more generous provision of publicly funded state housing.

By all means, continue to repeat the same depressing facts without offering any ideas about SOLUTIONS - I am sure we can all do that.

But what I am genuinely interested in - and this is what the thread is about - is how do you think things can be improved for the most vulnerable people in the UK once we have left the European Union that we couldn't do before?

If your answer is : "nothing" as it has seemed to be for the past four or five posts then why are you bothering to post at all? Seriously, lets just give up and ignore the poor totally. Because that will really help.

LouiseCollins apologies, I haven't yet responded to your detailed (and much appreciated) posts from last night.

I have to do some work to do now but will BBL!

I wish there was an edit function on Mumsnet.

FUOI I meant to add "good state education" to the list below. Hugely important.

You mean we didn't vote with the overprivileged enclave of rich middle class southerners who popped across the channel regularly to their second (?third) homes. Oh, boohoo.
(sorry for the sarcasm - I was going to make a sensible post but this just got to me)

So a sole trader builder in Cornwall, owning a small 120k property in france is "over privileged, rich and M/C"?
Or a retired nurse or a teacher? these are 3 people i know who own holiday homes in europe.
These are the very people who pay the taxes to provide the benefits you moan you don't get enough or will be paying the tax to hold a Festival of brexit lol!

Why is so many brexitiers voted out of spite toward anyone who got of their arses &made something of their lives, often from some pretty humble beginnings

You're Angry and Very, Very Cross - which I'm sure you already know can be a very self-destructive path to follow if you let the Anger take hold of you

When you come out with "when the anger subsides, we can come together and build a better country" yes that does make me angry.

I ve accepted Brexit, i have an Irish passport via my nan but this idea that you expect remainers to join you in some sort of national rebuild... nope ain't going to happen.

@Peregrina

I didn't see any uproar around The Bedroom Tax and moving the money to Help To Buy Homelessness Poverty Foodbanks Removing money from disabled 0 hour contracts etc.

All these things haven't suddenly come to fruition. Nothing was said nothing was changing, nobody was bothered.

May be you move in the wrong circles then? I belong to a church where people regularly support the food bank with donations, money and time. Where most of the members are involved with some sort of activity to help their fellow citizens, and a number feel that this is not sufficient and need to add political activity to the list.

But they get sneered at for being middle class do gooders, not people who have a genuine concern for the welfare of the people in their community.

Tbf peregrina those things aren’t exactly aligned with the core Labour movement are they?

Ask your average person in the street whether they want charity bestowing on them or meaningful direction and purpose to their life, see what they say.

Donations to food banks are not what the working classes toiled for.

@jj90914

You go on about jobs etc. but ignore the massive elephant in the room is that the economy is on live support anyway prior to Brexit or C19.

That’s true.

But just because the status quo is bad, it doesn’t mean that it can’t become far worse.

This kind of reasoning is like breaking an arm and saying: “I’ll let you in on a little secret - Your left arm is already broken. We may may as well just break the right one as well.”

Wow. just wow. Pat on head "I know its bad, but just think how bad it could get, now vote remain so I'm OK like a good little girl" The problem with that argument is that they have already had their legs broken, ignored and the crutch thrown away. They know its only a matter of time before they come for the other. As 2008 onwards. Since the vote they have spent their time trying to minimise the rule changes and completely ignored or even tried to address the reasons for the vote. A bit like Carney saying interest rates had nothing to do with House Prices for 5 or 6 years then having an Epiphany just before he leaves and "Admits he's wrong" when he knew that all along, my dog even knew that. Selfish give me a break can't get voting quick enough is there is a 1p off tax, stuff the consequences.
BJ even ran his leadership campaign on reducing taxes for those earning 70K plus. Let me guess who will fill the void.

Few are racist, less believed the bus, vast majority couldn't give a stuff about soverienty (around me anyway).
Housing been on the agenda 20 years - never addressed - too many vested interest
Health starved - lot couldn't care less because private medical cover
Services deprived to keep Council Tax down to feed house prices
30% on VAT nothing said if they had put 30% on Highest Rate of tax it would be headlines every day.

History, experience and every nerve in the body tells them nothing is going to change.

For you that was a good thing for them is was bad.

And you say its selfish Boy Oh Boy

Fusio

I used to care about inequality in the UK, but the longer i go on threads like these, its like "screw em, why should my taxes be wasted on the feckless?"
I'm in the process of taking VC, so at least i won't be paying 40% to help people who voted to close down their own car plant.

Whatever the rights an wrongs in any of our arguments, one thing is sure, Brexit is going make the poor poorer, division and inequality greater still, we will become more like the USA than mainland Europe, less public services and more reliance on insurance and self payment, if you can't afford either, you rely on charity or go without.

Can you not see why that view is problematic though jas? I’m not being an arse but it’s a bit ‘be a good serf and do as you’re told, there’s a good chap’ isn’t it?

A petulant child says "I won't do what you tell me because I'm sick of hearing it". Even if the message is "don't jump off a cliff". Even if other more sensible kids, who are also fed up of being told what's good for them, realise that jumping off a cliff is a bad idea.
And then the petulant child screams "be nice to me. You're mean for not being nice".
Pretty much summarises the arguments , you've got here, op.

We need to break up the UK because it's not working. Or at least create a federation. We need to change the House of Lords to an elected Senate. We need some version of proportional representation. And we didn't need to recreate the 2020 version of the Suez Crisis (where we we think we're the dog's bollocks and we learn the hard that we aren't).

@mincefuckinpies

Can you not see why that view is problematic though jas? I’m not being an arse but it’s a bit ‘be a good serf and do as you’re told, there’s a good chap’ isn’t it?

Nope not at all, the vote is done now.

Can you not see that people who have lost eu rights that that they very much treasured might just might be a bit pissed off when former brexit voting Nissan workers ask for govt bailouts? or the peoples of Cornwall complain they have lost regional funding?

btw i very much hope nissan/airbus etc stay here

you can be pissed off at whatever you want to be pissed off at, as far as I am concerned. There is nothing in EU or British law stating that the right to be pissed off has been withdrawn: good thing too!

What I don't understand is why people have put their faith in men like Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Farage. None of them are men from a humble background like Lloyd George who rose to PM . A man who did introduce the first beginnings of the welfare state.

What I would like to see is a proper reform of the NHS where we have a commission to look at how countries with good systems provide them - New Zealand, Germany for example and what we can learn from them. Instead all we see is it being privatised by stealth to make it more like the American model.

@mincefuckinpies

you can be pissed off at whatever you want to be pissed off at, as far as I am concerned. There is nothing in EU or British law stating that the right to be pissed off has been withdrawn: good thing too!

Sure you have just written a shining example as to why division and inequality will just keep growing

You make a compelling argument though

It's probably too much to hope for but I would love some non-goady genuine pro-Brexit posters to explain some of this to me.

Well with that goady post why would anyone even start a discussion with you.
Remainers are so blinkered and selfish it makes the leave vote worthwhile. We now have a chance to fix our country, and, and this will be a big shock to many, our country is a big place, not just London or Cornish Fishermen - there's a lot north of Watford -not that you will have travelled in that direction from what I can guess--

As opposed to who, though? Cameron? Gove? We can endlessly play the game of but that politician is a Bad Man Ah, but that one is WORSE! In the end it has to come down to your own beliefs and judgement. I will say though that one politician I genuinely respect was pro brexit. I wouldn’t say it shaped my own views but was a consideration.

Your point being you don't care about anyone who is better off than you? Rather selfish, don't you think? If you heard os someone dying in a plane crash would you say "well what do I care I can't afford to fly?" Your moral compass seems to be entirely based on "does it affect me"?
You’re delusional if you expect the poor to care that the rich will become slightly less rich! They voted to be able to work and put food on the table for their kids, they don’t care that Rupert and Allegra will lose their second home on the French Riviera!

I wasn’t arguing jas! How on earth could I argue with the almost universally held right to be pissed off!

What I don't understand is why people have put their faith in men like Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Farage.

What a ridiculous generalisation. Whose faith?
Because posh blokes stand as MPs and get voted in to be PM, like Tony Blair did. Were there some non posh blokes I'm sure we'd all vote for them but sadly they have better things to do with their time.

@DonkeyMcFluff again with the second home bollocks. Is that the best you've got?
I'm sure the majority Remain voters of Central Liverpool and Central Manchester are just waiting for their second fucking homes.