Can any genuine non-goady posters who voted for Brexit answer some of the following questions please?

[Spittingchestnuts]

I would prefer to avoid a goady thread if at all possible.

I'm British but I live outside the UK and I'm interested to know - now Brexit is "done" (almost) - why current discussions about it on Mumsnet and elsewhere on UK sm and in the press, are not more focused on what the UK will be doing after 1st January when the transition period comes to an end should we have no deal, and even if we do? (I'm thinking more about policy and direction rather than possible goods delays at borders but those are important too.) Is anyone who voted for Brexit prepared to admit that they are worried with the New Year looming so close and so little information coming from the government?

Some regular pro-Brexit posters on here seem to have blind faith in Boris Johnson's government and a strong belief that life will automatically be better outside the EU despite the fact that, apart from a few vague witterings about greater flexibility and increased sovereignty, we almost have next to no detailed information about it. The lack of detailed facts available is scary actually. As far as I can understand it, Brexiteers voted for a "vague notion" sketched in the briefest of terms by a proven liar and his cohorts with next to no detail or shading. If you think this interpretation is unfair, can you give me more details as to why? What concrete things did you vote for as opposed to the things you voted against?

To date, the UK government have been very vocal about what they don't want and how they don't want to be shackled to EU rules, but have been less forthcoming about what they do want and how these changes wiil translate in to legislation. We've rejected rules and policies that are roughly aligned with a Christian liberal, centre-leaning social democratic model that focuses on high product standards and good basic employment protections, so where will we go now? In a different direction presumably?

So what will the laws and policies be that distinguish ourselves from this EU mould? 52% of UK citizens voted for them so can any of you please explain them? We will presumably be steering to the right of where we are now? Given that Brexit was championed by the right wing of the Conservative party who want lower taxes, less state intervention, I would say that that's a logical conclusion, but is no one particularly alarmed by this prospect? Can anyone who voted for Brexit but doesn't view themselves as particularly right wing , explain this to me?

I know it is said that some Brexiteers voted for improved public services, and for more money being invested in the NHS etc? Can anyone explain how Boris will manage to recruit more nurses, more police, and have better environmental standards, while presiding over a low tax economy or "Singapore-on-Thames"? Does no one recognise a potential conflict between these two positions?

And now we want to trade more with non-EU countries that are geographically further away, how will be, practically and logistically, manage to do this without undermining current UK efforts to be more environmentally friendly?

And what about the "small" matter of Scotland voting to remain by 62%? And Northern Ireland by 55.8%? Is anyone who voted for Brexit even mildly concerned about what affect a Conservative government, based in Westminster, imposing a divergence away from Europe they didn't want, on citizens of Scotland and N.Ireland, will have on the unity of the UK ?

It's probably too much to hope for but I would love some non-goady genuine pro-Brexit posters to explain some of this to me. As I love and miss the UK, and have lots of family there, and there are 20 days until the new year, these questions are occupying my thoughts and keeping me awake at night.

FUSOI All this thread has achieved is that Remainers don't wish to accept the reasons given and expect people believe the patronising view with a pat on the head if they had only voted remain instead things would of changed for the better with their help.

Thanks. I have tried to be respectful and civil throughout this thread.

I think it has allowed some decent debate actually. And I certainly haven't rejected the reasons you have given. But you have time and time again failed to answer the question, in what direction do you want the UK to go NOW that we are leaving the EU?

And I'm sorry, I do think the most vulnerable in UK society will be worse off now that we have deliberately pulled ourself out of the world's largest trading block. This is not a patronising head pat. It is a genuine heartfelt belief.

@Europilgrim

Still waiting foir you apology for calling me a LIAR. please show me where or apologise for the accusation.

Europilgrim Sun 13-Dec-20 11:08:16 "It's convenient to pretend that Leave voters were protesting against years of deprivation, it's not actually true though."

You didn't use the word Liar, you used pretend but same difference you basically said I was pretending that was my reason for voting Out.
Semantics but basically lying.

I'm going to leave this thread now and do other things.

The conversation is going backwards.

I am still very interested in what Leaves want, going FORWARDS???

I'll BBL to catch up, but in the meantime, thank you very much for everyone's contributions to the debate.

Leavers

@SpittingchestnutsWhat happens will happen, a lot voted for a change and said many times. I am well aware as noted previously the Irony that rich voted for polar reasons.

Ask yourself this if the vote had been remain, would of anything changed even been discussed (not that it has anyway) about the less well off, disavantaged.

I suspect if you answer honestly the truth will be nothing just more of the same.

Nothing much will change if truth be told. More money will be threw at lining peoples pockets and the poor demonised even more.

Covid relief probably gave an indication.
Mortgage Holidays
£10,000 for Holiday Lets
Stamp Duty Holiday
Anything to keep house prices going up and debt mountain going, politicians playing russian roulette and hope it doesn't go tits up on their watch.

@FUSOI I used "pretend" here in the sense of "claim", though I can see how you might have thought otherwise so I apologise for the misunderstanding.

On immigration, the UK is very densely populated, and issues are arising due to this. So it makes sense to control immigration, and encourage the employment of nationals.

But Brexit didn't solve any of that. The UK now shifted to letting in more culture ill-fitting people easier. Which has the potential to be disastrous.

House prices:
I think in London it has more to do with Russian and Arab oligarchs buying up massive amounts of properties.

Covid relief probably gave an indication.

You've missed out:
Money given to Boris's chums, without tendering for the work.
Johnson had to be shamed into giving children free meals in holidays.

@TheSunIsStillShining

On immigration, the UK is very densely populated, and issues are arising due to this. So it makes sense to control immigration, and encourage the employment of nationals.

But Brexit didn't solve any of that. The UK now shifted to letting in more culture ill-fitting people easier. Which has the potential to be disastrous.

House prices:
I think in London it has more to do with Russian and Arab oligarchs buying up massive amounts of properties.

Yes, I agree Brexit itself will not sort this indeed. The goverment will have to come up with the solutions, or actually add more problems to the pot. Only that now they cannot blame it onto the EU or others.

OP, why have you left?
Surely you know the public cannot tell you what it is going to happen? What the plan is? It is up to the goverment.
I really think it is time to stop blaming each other, and calling people one thing or another, and ask the goverment for answers about the issues that worry us, together. Time to re-join the country. No more division. This rift is getting too wide. We need to do our bit to close it. And face the people in charge. It is their job to plan the policies to provide a future for the country.
Including clarifying the rules to follow after the 31st, which thay have not done yet! I cannot imagine what trying to arrange deliveries must be like at present....

[quote FUSOI]@SpittingchestnutsWhat happens will happen, a lot voted for a change and said many times. I am well aware as noted previously the Irony that rich voted for polar reasons.

Ask yourself this if the vote had been remain, would of anything changed even been discussed (not that it has anyway) about the less well off, disavantaged.

I suspect if you answer honestly the truth will be nothing just more of the same.

Nothing much will change if truth be told. More money will be threw at lining peoples pockets and the poor demonised even more.

Covid relief probably gave an indication.
Mortgage Holidays
£10,000 for Holiday Lets
Stamp Duty Holiday
Anything to keep house prices going up and debt mountain going, politicians playing russian roulette and hope it doesn't go tits up on their watch.[/quote]
FUSOI

The vote wasn't remain and I still fail to see how adding a potential 20-40,000 job losses from the car industry, never mind aviation, retail and all of the other vulnerable industries post-Brexit, is going to improve the position of those people already relying on public services and benefits.

And if the vote had been remain at least the powers that be, and the press, wouldn't have had most of their energies and attention focused on Brexit for four years away from domestic social policy.

OP, why have you left?

Er, to clean the bathroom, wash school uniform and prep dinner. (I also mentioned that I would bbl!) Have been here on and off for two days.

We definitely need to stop calling one another names. And I agree there needs to be resolution of differences, but I have next to no trust in the government pushing this forward. And therefore I was interested in what vision Leavers had the future in terms of policy and legislation. What sort of country would they like us to be outside of the EU? Which direction do they want us to follow? They gave the Government an overwhelming mandate after all.

Ok I thought you meant you were leaving the thread!

No worries MushMonster

@Spittingchestnuts
You,ve just answered your own questions.
Voted Remain - Nothing Changes
Vote Brexit - Nothing Changes
Both ends of the stick are covered in brown stuff - so might aswell be different brown stuff.
Vast majority are working.
The powers that be and the press would of just carried on regardless and Brexit wouldn't of stopped them. Indeed they should of used it to spur them on to do something about the reasons for the vote - but nothing.
I will say it again, it aint that hard to understand. Its a lot of peoples inability to put themselves in their shoes.

You voted for what you think is best option for you, not whats best for everybody else. The country other people, patriotism etc. is purely secondary. They are no different. Your previous votes you didn't care what effect it had on other people or the ill effects it has had on others. So why should they care about you? The attitude has and is sacrifices are needed as long as its not me.

You putting your perspective your logic onto a situation that will just give you the same answer over and over again. Its not the same answer they will arrive at in a 100 years.
The country has deep seated issues and its policies are forever narrowing to a lower percentage of the population. There isn't an answer because nothing is going to change until it hits a brick wall.

The government and BOE with over £1Trillion thrown at Stock and House Prices are desperately trying to keep that going with ever increasing amounts and ever lower interest rates. ( you may want to look up who benefits the most from this, clue it isn't those that need it) Like other issues its simply unsustainable but the politicians like the people prefer to ignore the obvious. The "benefit bill" pales into insignificance.

You probably don't give a monkeys as long as you house price keeps increasing and taxes lower. Like everybody nothing is said until you need them and not available because its not funded.

The same merrygoround for 50 years, the ever increasing dash to the bottom. Good luck if you think otherwise. The problem is that net is being cast wider as time goes by.

I will repeat, If it wasn't for the Brexit vote I doubt you and the majority of people (with some noteable exceptions) would give a jot about the lives of people that voted Out. In reality probably still don't its only the fact it may effect you (royal you) adversely.

Brexit and C19 will take the blame for a lot, but they are the icing on the cake not the real issues.

I'm done because there is only so many times I can repeat the same things, it isn't going to change anything.

The one person that I know who voted leave did so because of immigration. They also witnessed Eastern European trades undercutting family members who worked in the same trade. (Ironically, this person also employed Eastern European tradespeople to undertake work on their own property because they were cheaper!)

They strongly believed everything that good old Farage said, pretty much verbatim.

In our conversations it became apparent that it was difficult to have a balanced debate about the EU and wider issues as the overwhelming desire was to reduce immigration. Sadly this person freely admitted that they did not read articles about the EU and its benefits but was very swayed by the TV soundbites and debates around the issue.

I share a very different view as a remainer, but I do also think that Cameron and Co having called the referendum in the first place (which should not have happened) then did an utterly disastrous job of actually explaining any of the benefits of the EU to the masses. It was a classic PR exercise in how not to do something.

I'm not in contact any more with this person who voted Leave and it would be interesting to know whether their point of view is still as it was or whether it has changed.

I also strongly agree with Anna who has both remain and leave voters within the family in that those whose work involves any degree of selling to Europe or importing from Europe realise far more the impact of not being part of the EU. Though I also realise there are strange instances where others then seem amazingly put out to now be realising what leaving the EU actually means for their own circumstances when their own work involves some form of EU involvement.

But I COULD put a stop to it by voting Leave.
And to hell with all the damage that would cause? All your posts seem to be saying you reacted to a situation but deliberately didn't look at the consequences of your vote*
I’m sure people weighed up the consequences of their vote and decided that the positives outweighed the negatives - for them personally at least. Manual labourers who were in poverty due to being undercut by Eastern European labourers voted Leave because for them that was the most pressing issue. They wanted immigration to be stopped and for the workers who were undercutting them to be sent home. I doubt they gave a shit that rich people’s kids would be unable to study abroad, or that wealthy business owners would be unable to grow their business and trade with the EU, etc. Equally I doubt the women who were worried about being assaulted by migrants and the streets being unsafe for their kids will be bothered by having to pay an extra tenner for their groceries and not being able to get strawberries year round. People who can’t afford staff don’t care if the staff employed by the wealthy get deported. People who can’t afford to travel don't care if those who can afford it have to get visas. It’s about priorities and people voted for their OWN priorities.

I doubt they gave a shit that rich people’s kids would be unable to study abroad,
Again with these prejudices! Why the obsession with rich people? The rich actually don't care - they can buy their way out of this. Those who benefitted the most from studying abroad were the ones who couldn't afford it any other way. Whichever way you look at it, British children have lost opportunites - which EU children still have.

And by the way, I have three kids and we don't have highly-paid jobs. My children will be studying in the EU for free or for relatively low fees. I am sorry that my nieces and nephews won't get that chance.

FUSOI I still fail to see how making the country economically poorer, people losing jobs, food prices rising, potential shortages of drugs, less money in the economy, is going to improve the situation for the most vulnerable in society?

And you consistently fail to address how you would proceed in future if you were in power? What sort of country do you want ithe UK to be in relation to Europe (which is what this thread is about)? How do you see the UK's position in the world post -Brexit? Someone has to come up with some concrete ideas at some point.

Although you don't believe it, I do understand the reasons why people voted for Leave were v different reasons (often wholly unconnected with issues relating to the EU but were nevertheless v strongly held views and continue to be) . The problem with this is , that if Brexit or no deal Brexit means trading wealth for sovereignty eg 10% reduction in GDP , then we will all be poorer and proportionately those people voting for Brexit for a better life will be further affected and disappointed. What alternative in relation to Europe do you suggest?

DonkeyMcFluff Again, I totally understand why people may have voted Leave but we must agree to disagree over whether Brexit will being the improvements that those voters hoped for or not. I guess everyone will find out soon enough.

As Friendlycat yes I think people are only going to be become fully aware of the tangible benefits of being inside the EU once we are outside it. Too late sadly.

As Friendlycat mentioned - that should have read

Friendlycat totally agree about Cameron et al.

I am going to write 2 further posts in response to the OP. I’m doing that because in the OP Spittingchestnuts asks lots of questions which boil down to “where are we going next” clearly my level of influence on that is in reality, nearly zero. That said, I wanted to offer 2 answers, one about where I hope we are going and a second about where I think we may actually be going. I can’t articulate everything in a few paras but this is 1 of 2. and this is my “hopeful” answer.

I want to see the UK strike a trade deal with the EU. I want her to be open to all the world’s trading opportunities to the maximum extent possible. I’d like to see Britain maximise her trade with the fastest growing economies, which at the moment are situated outside the EU. I want British consumers to have the opportunity to purchase goods from the widest range of potential suppliers worldwide, without giving preferential treatment to EU producers. I’d like to see the proportion of goods we buy from the EU fall, to be replaced with more domestic production and closer ties with other markets.

I want to see the UK government invest monies that we have previously been paying in EU contributions in struggling communities here. What that money gets spent on isn’t something I’ve got a lot of experience about what would be best, but it seems obvious to me that it needs to deliver real jobs, now. I want to see firms like Uber and others who treat their workers as independent contractors denying them employment rights banned from operating in the UK immediately after the COVID pandemic is dealt with.

One concrete change I would want it in public procurement. Essentially the rule for public bodies needs to be, if it can be made in the UK, it must be bought in the UK.
I want to see Britain’s manufacturing base strengthened and diversified. The public procurement rule above should help with this, as would a large investment in, for example, green energy and domestic nuclear power generation. I would like to see a substantial investment in technical education to equip UK workers to take on these jobs, including retraining for those who lose jobs due to COVID.
Public investment in towns in the north should be incentivised, same for the midlands and other underfunded areas like Cornwall. Whether it’s clean energy, new vehicles, moving government departments, new infrastructure projects, etc, putting them in these places should be incentivised.

I’d like to see vastly more of our goods move about the country by rail. Domestic road haulage by fossil fuel burning vehicles above the size of small vans and trucks needs to be drastically reduced. In the same way as we are now targeting to be selling electric cars by 2030, we should have no petrol/diesel powered commercial vehicles being sold either by the same date.

I want to see an unmistakable reassertion that our key military alliance is with NATO and our primary military partner worldwide is the United States. Cooperation with individual European nation’s militaries should also be maximised. I do not want the UK to have any involvement with EU military force operations at all. I would also welcome a UK “Defence Production Act” essentially mandating companies to produce what the government tells them they must in the event of a future war.

I want to see the UK control her borders more tightly. I welcome the points-based immigration system proposal. Border Force and HMRC numbers need to be boosted hugely (again more jobs). Ideally, we’ll reach a point where people on cross channel ferries routinely see UK patrol vessels passing by.

I want to see British politicians take responsibility for their own decisions, no more buck passing to the EU. I want to see British people taking more responsibility for their own welfare and security. As an example, I want to see the economy managed to favour much more the interests of “savers” Ideally, I’d like to see borrowing money be reasserted as being a moral ill. I’d also like to see advertising of gambling online or on television prohibited.

So there’s my hope, a greener, wider trading, stronger Britain with tighter borders, more responsible citizens and a more accountable government.

Many of those things are perfectly desirable, but I can't see the present government choosing to implement them.

Just one example - the EU never stopped us investing in railways- Governments have chosen not to invest.

The sheer volume of goods that we see have Made In China written on them, doesn't make me think that we were ever stopped from trading with the rest of the World.