Can any genuine non-goady posters who voted for Brexit answer some of the following questions please?

[Spittingchestnuts]

I would prefer to avoid a goady thread if at all possible.

I'm British but I live outside the UK and I'm interested to know - now Brexit is "done" (almost) - why current discussions about it on Mumsnet and elsewhere on UK sm and in the press, are not more focused on what the UK will be doing after 1st January when the transition period comes to an end should we have no deal, and even if we do? (I'm thinking more about policy and direction rather than possible goods delays at borders but those are important too.) Is anyone who voted for Brexit prepared to admit that they are worried with the New Year looming so close and so little information coming from the government?

Some regular pro-Brexit posters on here seem to have blind faith in Boris Johnson's government and a strong belief that life will automatically be better outside the EU despite the fact that, apart from a few vague witterings about greater flexibility and increased sovereignty, we almost have next to no detailed information about it. The lack of detailed facts available is scary actually. As far as I can understand it, Brexiteers voted for a "vague notion" sketched in the briefest of terms by a proven liar and his cohorts with next to no detail or shading. If you think this interpretation is unfair, can you give me more details as to why? What concrete things did you vote for as opposed to the things you voted against?

To date, the UK government have been very vocal about what they don't want and how they don't want to be shackled to EU rules, but have been less forthcoming about what they do want and how these changes wiil translate in to legislation. We've rejected rules and policies that are roughly aligned with a Christian liberal, centre-leaning social democratic model that focuses on high product standards and good basic employment protections, so where will we go now? In a different direction presumably?

So what will the laws and policies be that distinguish ourselves from this EU mould? 52% of UK citizens voted for them so can any of you please explain them? We will presumably be steering to the right of where we are now? Given that Brexit was championed by the right wing of the Conservative party who want lower taxes, less state intervention, I would say that that's a logical conclusion, but is no one particularly alarmed by this prospect? Can anyone who voted for Brexit but doesn't view themselves as particularly right wing , explain this to me?

I know it is said that some Brexiteers voted for improved public services, and for more money being invested in the NHS etc? Can anyone explain how Boris will manage to recruit more nurses, more police, and have better environmental standards, while presiding over a low tax economy or "Singapore-on-Thames"? Does no one recognise a potential conflict between these two positions?

And now we want to trade more with non-EU countries that are geographically further away, how will be, practically and logistically, manage to do this without undermining current UK efforts to be more environmentally friendly?

And what about the "small" matter of Scotland voting to remain by 62%? And Northern Ireland by 55.8%? Is anyone who voted for Brexit even mildly concerned about what affect a Conservative government, based in Westminster, imposing a divergence away from Europe they didn't want, on citizens of Scotland and N.Ireland, will have on the unity of the UK ?

It's probably too much to hope for but I would love some non-goady genuine pro-Brexit posters to explain some of this to me. As I love and miss the UK, and have lots of family there, and there are 20 days until the new year, these questions are occupying my thoughts and keeping me awake at night.

Political parties that promote their own ideas instead of turning to statistics of how many votes will get them to support A or B view!
Like in the old times. Proper leadership!

They have agreed to keep talking. At least that is the headline in The Guardian.

Thank heavens for that MushMonster

I repeat, in order to break away from the past, we need to know where we want to go in the future. Leaving the EU, difficult though it was, was the easy bit. How can we negotiate effectively without answering these basic qs? My suspicion of course is that Boris and Gove DO know very well where we are going and they have lied about it and/or not bothered to tell or consult the electorate.

I think a lot of people who voted remain genuinely did so because they felt that THAT was the best way in which the most vulnerable and disenfranchised members of society could be protected and supported; and economic imbalances within the UK further levelled out

Indeed. Various areas of the UK which are already poor (eg Cornwall) will be stuffed w/o EU development money.

And the Tories from Thatcher onwards have shown what they really think about poor people, and their communities. As posters on the Relationships board here say, look at what they do not what they say.

I do not like or trust Boris to be a leader neither.
Future is a blank space, because they do not want to talk about it indeed.
Just a few days to go till they cannot hide behind the excuse that it affects negotiations and so on.
I am convinced that they will reach a trade deal, even if not by the 31st, they have no other option.

This was quite the reverse of racism - he wanted to open things up & make it easier to have people from all over the world to live & work in the UK, not just EU citizens.(But I don't know how he voted & I would never ask of course).

But how Britain treats immigrants from the rest of the world was absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Did you think to ask him why he didn't want the UK Government to make it easier for RoW citizens, rather than making it more difficult for EU citizens? There is a good chance that his vote has helped to shoot his recruitment policies in the foot with Westminster primarily to blame.

Spittingchestnuts

"""FUSOI I think a lot of people who voted remain genuinely did so because they felt that THAT was the best way in which the most vulnerable and disenfranchised members of society could be protected and supported; and economic imbalances within the UK further levelled out. Life is horribly difficult for many people but please explain how is it going to improve when we leave the EU and there is less tax paid in to the economy, there is less protection for minimum wage workers, etc etc? A socialist utopia is hardly likely to arise from the ashes of Brexit that's for sure.

Corbyn should have made that argument but imho he lacked enough courage to actively move the Labour Party toward a Leave position, or even to advocate for compromise, so instead he basically laid low and opted out of debate. Unforgiveable."""

Theres the problem, you asked for non goady then just put your own spin on things.

It has been my experience and many others that the majority of remainers never have and never will give a fig about most vulnerable in society. Their interest is their lives. It rings extremely hollow that there was any kind of thought around them previous to the Brexit vote or since. Its been put forward as a half hearted argument that the poor and vulnerable dont buy into.

I didn't see any uproar around The Bedroom Tax and moving the money to Help To Buy
Homelessness
Poverty
Foodbanks
Removing money from disabled
0 hour contracts etc.

All these things haven't suddenly come to fruition. Nothing was said nothing was changing, nobody was bothered.

You see just deaf, we really don't expect it to improve why would we nobody has done anything until now thats not going to change much. But that is not a reason for maintaining the status quo.

Nobody but you has mentioned a Socialist Utopia, I certainly didn't.
It would be nice to live in a country that is not morally bankrupt, but thats not going to happen anytime soon either.

Again not listening It didn't matter what Corbyn said many MP's flatly said they werent going to do Brexit many of those arent MP's anymore.

I dont know what factually incorrect about people who voted remain in general constantly calling Brexit voters stupid, it happens on a daily basis regularly on numerous sites / forums. I wish I had a £ for everytime I have seen it.

You obviously dont like the answers you have been given which is fine maybe its best you don't ask so you can go on thinking whatever you want.

Trust me people at the lower end who voted Brexit don't expect to see any change, but can live in hope as against no hope.

It really isn't that difficult to understand.

I didn't see any uproar around The Bedroom Tax and moving the money to Help To Buy
Homelessness Poverty Foodbanks Removing money from disabled 0 hour contracts etc.

All these things haven't suddenly come to fruition. Nothing was said nothing was changing, nobody was bothered.

May be you move in the wrong circles then? I belong to a church where people regularly support the food bank with donations, money and time. Where most of the members are involved with some sort of activity to help their fellow citizens, and a number feel that this is not sufficient and need to add political activity to the list.

But they get sneered at for being middle class do gooders, not people who have a genuine concern for the welfare of the people in their community.

Did you think to ask him why he didn't want the UK Government to make it easier for RoW citizens, rather than making it more difficult for EU citizens?

That feels like quite an aggressive post @Peregrina - this was a colleague and someone I manage. An in depth interrogation of his personal political views would have been inappropriate.

I have no idea how he voted - I live in a town that voted Remain overall by quite a big margin, so he may have voted Remain. I don't know.

I just thought it was an interesting point, and as the OP asked - not a racist one, perhaps justifying voting Leave, from the expertise of someone whose daily job includes arranging visas for academic employment. He knows how difficult UK regulations are, I'd guess (although try getting a work visa for Australia, or the USA, for example!)

It wasn't meant to be aggressive. Just fact - why is it difficult for Rest of the World citizens to take up jobs in the UK? Because that is what the Westminster Government has chosen to do. Why was there a Windrush Generation?

This is one issue which will be interesting to see played out, now that we have left the EU. We have always relied on non UK workers to staff the NHS either Commonwealth or Irish. We rely now on E Europeans for fruit picking - not because the British are lazy but because an aging population is not fit enough to do the work required.

So who will staff the NHS and pick the fruit?

@Peregrina

I am not a church goer myself and well aware there are people around that genuinely care and want to improve things for others. And I have nothing much admiration for them and you.

Unfortunately they are in the very tiny minority which I am sure you are aware of yourself.

My comments are a valid generalisation that many people will recognise as an accurate portrayal of society.

I would hope that they are not a tiny majority. At the beginning of lockdown there was a positive community spirit locally and no, you don't need to be a church goer - just basically a decent person.

E.g. think how many people got behind Marcus Rashford's campaign.

@Peregrina

I would hope that they are not a tiny majority. At the beginning of lockdown there was a positive community spirit locally and no, you don't need to be a church goer - just basically a decent person.

Most people put themselves ahead of anyone else, especially the poor, who many see as authors of their own misfortune.

Look how we keep voting tory in the hope they might knock a 1p of income tax? whilst at the same time moaning about schools, roads, the nhs & public services etc.

On immigration, the UK is very densely populated, and issues are arising due to this. So it makes sense to control immigration, and encourage the employment of nationals.
There was a time when people was needed to take up jobs, so immigration would have been encouraged.
The system needs to be live, and move with the country needs, without being unfair to those who relocated (like the Windrush scandal). This will happen for all countries indeed. It is an issue since the world have been spinning. They key is to adjust and regulate when it is needed.

It has been my experience and many others that the majority of remainers never have and never will give a fig about most vulnerable in society.
But this is just a generalisation based on your narrow experience. My family is working class or at least has working class origins and we are basically split 50:50. I find it frustrating though that my leave cousins who are all in farming or factory work were told that Leave would be bad in their industries still support Boris, despite the fact that one has already lost his job (Brexit related) and the others are at risk. And yes we were outraged at the bedroom tax - why wouldn't we be? You really have some deep seated ideas about Remainers which I think make it easier to accept your own decision. But they don't reflect reality. Plenty of Leave voters are rich and dont give a toss about anyone - you cannot generalise.

In my eyes, Corbyn is one of the main reasons the opposition never stood a chance. He was never an option with his crazy ideas. The only reason I can see of why Labour kept him is because they did not want to be in power in the middle of Brexit indeed. It took them too long to take a clear stand point, because they were quite divided in staying or leaving. Even now, they are thinking of abstaining in the deal vote, if and when it happens.

Plenty of Leave voters are rich and dont give a toss about anyone - you cannot generalise.

Quite - start with Boris Johnson.

FUSOI

It has been my experience and many others that the majority of remainers never have and never will give a fig about most vulnerable in society. Their interest is their lives. It rings extremely hollow that there was any kind of thought around them previous to the Brexit vote or since. Its been put forward as a half hearted argument that the poor and vulnerable dont buy into.

We can argue forever about your equally entrenched view that Remainers don't give a fig about the most vulnerable in society. Most of the ones I know voted Remain because they were worried about the economic health of the country outside of the world's largest trading block and the drop down effect that would have on the most vulnerable.

If you want I can pm you now with details of what the members of my own Anglo-Irish Catholic family back in the UK who voted remain, do with their time volunteering in food kitchens, day centre's for the homeless and food banks to name but a few. I can also pm with you details of some of my extended family who are very comfortably off landlords and farmers who voted for Brexit. (I know many farmers who are not well off who voted for Remain too.)

Seriously, is it logical to argue that all remainers don't care about the most vulnerable in society? Some do and some don't is nearer the truth.

I didn't see any uproar around The Bedroom Tax and moving the money to Help To Buy
Homelessness
Poverty
Foodbanks
Removing money from disabled
0 hour contracts etc.

I agree these issues have been ignored and allowed to proliferate and it is scandalous. It is scandalous what has happened to the housing sector, the gradual ebbing away of support for the disabled, zero hours contracts, and child poverty.

Again, can you explain to me how being outside of the EU (which is what this thread is about) is going to improve any one of them?

I think plenty of Remainers "get" that people voted against Brexit because they felt and were disenfranchised and had nothing left to loose. I get that. And it's a continuing disaster for them and for the country. I am certainly not calling you a liar.

Cameron was arrogant and complacent. The EU failed to explain itself properly. The Remain campaign failed that's for sure.

You say about the Red Wall voting Tory "So if you vote for change and get none what do you think was going to happen with the Brexit Vote?"

Fair enough, absolutely, but how is leaving the EU going to help the most disenfranchised members of our society?

And what is going to happen when we leave the EU and nothing changes either, or indeed things get worse?

Given that we are where we are at right NOW, where do we go from this point onwards?

I don’t know a great detail on the finer details but I have a theory.

I believe Brexit sideswiped everyone because in the age of political correctness, people are so very polite and don’t want to be branded (insert derogatory term of choice here) so keep their probably-considered-controversial opinions to themselves. Opinions are kept behind closed doors as though to speak. I think people felt that Brexit was the only voice they had to bring about real change.

We didn’t vote however I’ve come to this conclusion after speaking to a few people close to us that have since admitted to voting out, they are not your stereotypical brexiters either, we were surprised. Although there has been tremendous change to our local town in the last 15 - 20 years.

Does anyone know if there is a direct correlation between house prices and immigration? My friend mentioned this, there probably will be however I’ve never properly researched it. Her brother and his lovely wife are currently jumping through fiery immigrant hoops as his wife is unfortunately not from within the EU, the stress on theI’d family is awful and it’s costing them a fortune. I do find it a bit hypocritical really that anyone anti-EU is automatically racist, however if you’re not from the EU you’re not getting in - someone will probably be along shortly to advise, that it is our government that imposes these restrictions and not the EU, like I say I’m not really clued up on it all but as an outsider looking in it does seem unfair.

Over 17m people voted leave. I don’t think many people will openly admit to voting out as they won’t want to raise their head above the parapet.

At my place of work there are a number of very loud and vocal remainers that will literally shout anyone down for opening healthy discussion from an alternative perspective. I don’t get involved but it’s scary to see how aggressive some people can become if their opinions are challenged.

Look I voted remain and still would i certainly had my 'what the heck' moments but more recently I've come to think it was inevitable.

I'm not convinced multiculturalism works. We are a tribal species and it just goes against our nature to keep adapting to different people's cultures. There are certainly areas of my hometown that changed drastically in only a year or two due to mass eu immigration. If you are well-ish off you can reason this is good for the economy etc. but for most people it feels like unfamiliar / unwanted change and that is stressful. I suspect most people just want some stasis even if it means not earning as much.

@FUSOI - Thank you for your reasoned and patient posts in explaining this. I think many of these points go unexpressed because many are afraid of the usual backlash
Thank you too to all the other posters maintaining a good discussion without the usual aggression that threads on Brexit usually sink to quite quickly

I live in a deprived area and this comment expresses what I have heard many times from people locally. ...people at the lower end who voted Brexit don't expect to see any change, but can live in hope as against no hope.

Europilgrim
"But this is just a generalisation based on your narrow experience"

Not narrow experience at all. Look around it isn't that difficult to see.

"Plenty of Leave voters are rich and dont give a toss about anyone - you cannot generalise."

I've already said that twice

"You really have some deep seated ideas about Remainers which I think make it easier to accept your own decision. But they don't reflect reality."
Stop just rehashing what I typed about your decision.
I am extremely happy with the decision I made, like everybody else I did what I believe was best for us.
Still waiting foir you apology for calling me a LIAR.

@MushMonster
"In my eyes, Corbyn is one of the main reasons the opposition never stood a chance. He was never an option with his crazy ideas."

Never liked Corbyn he certainly didn't help but from one election doing well to the next they went from "Respecting Referendum" to "Remain in Everything but Name" which ironically was forced upon him by Phony Tonies Mates and Phony Tony Mk2. They are happy to blame him but know the truth is different. i.e,. Lid Democrats fate.

I didn't particularly trust Corbyn but I would have a damn sight more than Watson.

A friend put it quite nicely Labour have got their Heads in the Sand and Arses in Cloud Cuckoo land. If it hadn't been for C19 they would of tied themselves in knots over it in a very public way.

All this thread has achieved is that Remainers don't wish to accept the reasons given and expect people believe the patronising view with a pat on the head if they had only voted remain instead things would of changed for the better with their help.

3 hopes
Bob
Nee
and Wester

We all know absolutely nothing would / will have changed. Keep on telling yourselves that if it makes you feel better.

Still waiting foir you apology for calling me a LIAR. I didn't call you a liar though.

As covered below and explained at length, yes I am sure immigration was an element in why people voted for Brexit. And yes, I appreciate that many people (some of my elderly relatives in Lincolnshire among them) have found change in their local towns difficult to accommodate.

Again, trying to turn the conversation to the future and not the past, and as Peregrina said below, given that most people agree that the UK need's immigrants to work in the NHS and in agriculture among other areas, as our population is ageing, where do you want them to come from if not the EU?

In which direction will we go now we have supposedly "taken back control"?

Can any Leaver please tell me?

Still waiting foir you apology for calling me a LIAR. please show me where or apologise for the accusation.