Can any genuine non-goady posters who voted for Brexit answer some of the following questions please?

[Spittingchestnuts]

I would prefer to avoid a goady thread if at all possible.

I'm British but I live outside the UK and I'm interested to know - now Brexit is "done" (almost) - why current discussions about it on Mumsnet and elsewhere on UK sm and in the press, are not more focused on what the UK will be doing after 1st January when the transition period comes to an end should we have no deal, and even if we do? (I'm thinking more about policy and direction rather than possible goods delays at borders but those are important too.) Is anyone who voted for Brexit prepared to admit that they are worried with the New Year looming so close and so little information coming from the government?

Some regular pro-Brexit posters on here seem to have blind faith in Boris Johnson's government and a strong belief that life will automatically be better outside the EU despite the fact that, apart from a few vague witterings about greater flexibility and increased sovereignty, we almost have next to no detailed information about it. The lack of detailed facts available is scary actually. As far as I can understand it, Brexiteers voted for a "vague notion" sketched in the briefest of terms by a proven liar and his cohorts with next to no detail or shading. If you think this interpretation is unfair, can you give me more details as to why? What concrete things did you vote for as opposed to the things you voted against?

To date, the UK government have been very vocal about what they don't want and how they don't want to be shackled to EU rules, but have been less forthcoming about what they do want and how these changes wiil translate in to legislation. We've rejected rules and policies that are roughly aligned with a Christian liberal, centre-leaning social democratic model that focuses on high product standards and good basic employment protections, so where will we go now? In a different direction presumably?

So what will the laws and policies be that distinguish ourselves from this EU mould? 52% of UK citizens voted for them so can any of you please explain them? We will presumably be steering to the right of where we are now? Given that Brexit was championed by the right wing of the Conservative party who want lower taxes, less state intervention, I would say that that's a logical conclusion, but is no one particularly alarmed by this prospect? Can anyone who voted for Brexit but doesn't view themselves as particularly right wing , explain this to me?

I know it is said that some Brexiteers voted for improved public services, and for more money being invested in the NHS etc? Can anyone explain how Boris will manage to recruit more nurses, more police, and have better environmental standards, while presiding over a low tax economy or "Singapore-on-Thames"? Does no one recognise a potential conflict between these two positions?

And now we want to trade more with non-EU countries that are geographically further away, how will be, practically and logistically, manage to do this without undermining current UK efforts to be more environmentally friendly?

And what about the "small" matter of Scotland voting to remain by 62%? And Northern Ireland by 55.8%? Is anyone who voted for Brexit even mildly concerned about what affect a Conservative government, based in Westminster, imposing a divergence away from Europe they didn't want, on citizens of Scotland and N.Ireland, will have on the unity of the UK ?

It's probably too much to hope for but I would love some non-goady genuine pro-Brexit posters to explain some of this to me. As I love and miss the UK, and have lots of family there, and there are 20 days until the new year, these questions are occupying my thoughts and keeping me awake at night.

@DonkeyMcFluff

Your point being you don't care about anyone who is better off than you? Rather selfish, don't you think? If you heard os someone dying in a plane crash would you say "well what do I care I can't afford to fly?" Your moral compass seems to be entirely based on "does it affect me"? You’re delusional if you expect the poor to care that the rich will become slightly less rich! They voted to be able to work and put food on the table for their kids, they don’t care that Rupert and Allegra will lose their second home on the French Riviera!

With 2 brain cells it's obvious that it's not about the rich. The rich will keep having their trusts and companies in tax havens just off the shore.

The only class that lost more than anything in this is the middle class. The working people. And most of them voted to be shot in the foot. Those who have enough to go on holidays, maybe have a mortgage or be mortgage free by now. Those who own tiny business. Those who have something to lose: education for their kids, their livelihood... And these are the people who won't have a choice. These ppl are the least likely to go and protest or not pay tax. Again: because they have a lot to loose.
Tax rises will be inevitable.
Corporation tax rises will affect those companies below 500k/yr, because we are the ones who don't have enough to actually go to a tax haven. It's not viable, I checked. As a tiny company I have no option but pay the higher priecs until it becomes unsustainable.
Paye costs will rise, but the lowest level (min wage/0hours contracts/below personal tax threshold) won't really feel it as they are already getting peanuts. There is nothing more to take away from them. But someone on a 40k salary (in London that is not huge) have a bit to be taken away.
Meaning that systematically these average, not well off, but not starving middle class folks will be pushed closer to poverty.

They voted to be able to work and put food on the table for their kids
But leaving the EU will make it more unlikely that they will be able to. If Joe average is a plumber -- yay, no more polish plumbers. But more corp. or other tax will force him out of business. Or he will need to hike the prices.
If Joe average works in an office for 40k he will have more deduced from him. Meaning his kids will have less food (very simplistic)

So how is leaving the EU = to putting more food on the table?

Rupert and Allegra will lose their second home on the French Riviera
You are short sighted. Rupert and Allegra might be Susan and Jack from sown the road. They chose to put their inheritance into a small rural french property. Apart from that they don't have a nice cushion of money to pay for things that they never expected and haven't saved up for.

Rupert and Allegra will be fine, because the richest will only benefit from Brexit. And herein lies the real hypocrisy: this whole shitshow is about getting more to the people. No. It's about making the rich even richer at the expense of middle/lower class people.
Who still can't see this and are cheering them on.

Someone had the turkey voting for xmas analogy. These turkeys are protesting to be able to march in the oven...

I'm trying to keep things civil but I tend to agree Bellini

At the same time, I do acknowledge, that there are many genuine reasons why people voted for Brexit totally unrelated to EU issues, but reasons relating to social exclusion, poverty, and lack of opportunity. And I do agree with FUSOI to the extent that not enough is being done for those people and wrt those issues.

The question is ... what do we do about this post-Brexit?

Here is the "at a glance" document I failed to post earlier:

www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2019/642287/EPRS_ATA(2019)642287_EN.pdf

No one is saying the EU is perfect but it is heading in the right direction.

And EU Member States collectively have the power to try and challenge companies such as Facebook, Amazon and Google to pay tax www.theguardian.com/business/2018/mar/21/facebook-google-and-amazon-to-pay-fair-tax-under-eu-plans . (That article is two years old - not sure of current situation.)

They voted to be able to work and put food on the table for their kids

And it's increasingly clear that leaving the EU will either not improve such people's situation, and indeed, sadly, quite likely make it worse.

@Donkeymcfluff You're delusional if you can't see that many people wanted to remain to lessen the gap between rich and poor in this country. Do you not want that? Fo you want your children to be exactly in the same position forever or would you like concrete steps to be taken so they don't get trodden down by Rupert and Allegra's privately educated ones - because they are going to be ok whatever. It's the children who cant afford the gap years and the unpaid internships who are being shafted.

So how is leaving the EU = to putting more food on the table?
Well for many manual workers it’s to do with no longer being undercut by Eastern Europeans. So if people want the work done they’ll have to pay a market rate to a British worker, and hopefully that will result in employers being able to offer people proper jobs instead of zero hour contracts. Of course it might not work out like that, but people voted hopefully because, let’s face it, the current situation is shit and change can only be a good thing. And as I said before, if the government had actually used their powers to address this issue earlier then those people wouldn’t have voted for Brexit.

if the government had actually used their powers to address this issue earlier then those people wouldn’t have voted for Brexit.
I agree but that doesn't really excuse voting to make people worse off. All the things you list are less likely to happen after Brexit not more.

Eek that is a terrible mess (should have pressed preview). I've managed to strike through my own posts I will report the post and get it removed. Re-posting again ... with crossed fingers this time.

LouiseCollins28

Here's my reponse to your post one which I think (roughly) encapsulates my response to both of your posts.

Thank you again very much for both of them. As mentioned below, you are one of the few Leavers who is willing to talk about a post-Brexit future.

POST ONE
I am going to write 2 further posts in response to the OP. I’m doing that because in the OP Spittingchestnuts asks lots of questions which boil down to “where are we going next” clearly my level of influence on that is in reality, nearly zero. That said, I wanted to offer 2 answers, one about where I hope we are going and a second about where I think we may actually be going. I can’t articulate everything in a few paras but this is 1 of 2. and this is my “hopeful” answer.*

I want to see the UK strike a trade deal with the EU.
A trade deal would mean granting preference to EU for access to UK market in return for UK access to EU market

I want her to be open to all the world’s trading opportunities to the maximum extent possible. I’d like to see Britain maximise her trade with the fastest growing economies, which at the moment are situated outside the EU.

To do so UK will need to enter into trade agreements with these countries - to date UK has basically matched the agreements that the EU struck with these nations - so agreed UK now has the chance to go further. But this is not easy - access to markets is only given in return for equal opportunities.

I want British consumers to have the opportunity to purchase goods from the widest range of potential suppliers worldwide, without giving preferential treatment to EU producers.

Problem here is that this conflicts with your first objective. I would suggest that at least initially a deal with the EU is essential. In the future we may want to reconsider it.

I’d like to see the proportion of goods we buy from the EU fall, to be replaced with more domestic production and closer ties with other markets.

Domestic production may indeed rise in any event - without a deal some goods will be priced out of the UK market leaving opportunities for UK producers. But this takes time and in the short term it may well be that UK production overall drops...

I want to see the UK government invest monies that we have previously been paying in EU contributions in struggling communities here. What that money gets spent on isn’t something I’ve got a lot of experience about what would be best, but it seems obvious to me that it needs to deliver real jobs, now.

This is indeed a good point - Boris et all gave these promises. I fear that you will need to keep his feet to the fire before he makes good on this pledge. Note also that I can already hear the excuse ... COVID .... not really would be my answer. Probably COVID makes it all the more necessary to do this.

I want to see firms like Uber and others who treat their workers as independent contractors denying them employment rights banned from operating in the UK immediately after the COVID pandemic is dealt with.

Of course this is a political question - but I wonder whether the UK is going to move in this direction or will it instead be sent on a course towards even more deregulation - this on the basis that some jobs are better than no jobs. Just to add here the EU element - over here in the EU Uber has to deal with stronger EU laws on social protection (which the UK chose to opt out of years ago)... so in the EU there are many fewer opportunities for employers to use zero hours type contracts. Some would say this creates a less dynamic EU economy but on the other hand it leads to a more equal society. So here I think the battle will be whether the UK moves to be more like the EU on social and employment legislation and less like the right wing Brexiteers clearly intend. I must admit to having grave misgivings about this!

One concrete change I would want it in public procurement. Essentially the rule for public bodies needs to be, if it can be made in the UK, it must be bought in the UK.

Yes but rather than an absolute rule - which would encourage inefficiency and higher prices - how about a rule on national preference (something that the EU has used in international procurement). So eg where the price is not more than eg 5% higher UK products or services should be preferred.
Interesting question here is what do we mean by UK goods ... goods produced wholly in the UK - or goods produced in the UK using non UK components ???

I want to see Britain’s manufacturing base strengthened and diversified. The public procurement rule above should help with this, as would a large investment in, for example, green energy and domestic nuclear power generation. I would like to see a substantial investment in technical education to equip UK workers to take on these jobs, including retraining for those who lose jobs due to COVID.
AGREED !!!

Public investment in towns in the north should be incentivised, same for the midlands and other underfunded areas like Cornwall. Whether it’s clean energy, new vehicles, moving government departments, new infrastructure projects, etc, putting them in these places should be incentivised.
AGREED !!!

I’d like to see vastly more of our goods move about the country by rail. Domestic road haulage by fossil fuel burning vehicles above the size of small vans and trucks needs to be drastically reduced. In the same way as we are now targeting to be selling electric cars by 2030, we should have no petrol/diesel powered commercial vehicles being sold either by the same date.

AGREED ... but there are limits to how far the rail infrastructure can provide the flexibility ... this would require a significant sea change in policy and practice... The risk here is tokenism..... great sounding UK policies which will never have a chance of responding to the size of the issues at stake.

I want to see an unmistakable reassertion that our key military alliance is with NATO and our primary military partner worldwide is the United States. Cooperation with individual European nation’s militaries should also be maximised. I do not want the UK to have any involvement with EU military force operations at all. I would also welcome a UK “Defence Production Act” essentially mandating companies to produce what the government tells them they must in the event of a future war.

Well in so many respects this is essentially where we are now in the EU ... national armies with limited cooperation but an increasing role in defence procurement to drive down costs and remove national inefficiencies. UK will likely be outside this which is a challenge as we are one of the world’s biggest defence manufacturing countries. ....

I want to see the UK control her borders more tightly. I welcome the points-based immigration system proposal. Border Force and HMRC numbers need to be boosted hugely (again more jobs). Ideally, we’ll reach a point where people on cross channel ferries routinely see UK patrol vessels passing by.

Yes - borders can be even more secure. We've previously had the opportunity to make them so too.

I want to see British politicians take responsibility for their own decisions

Good luck with that ... it is the essence of all politicians to say one thing and do another and then blame someone else. It would be a good thing if over time we could respect politicians more ie based on their performance .... let's put this as a long term goal as it is definitely not going to happen overnight?

no more buck passing to the EU.
AGREED!!

I want to see British people taking more responsibility for their own welfare and security. As an example, I want to see the economy managed to favour much more the interests of “savers” Ideally, I’d like to see borrowing money be reasserted as being a moral ill. I’d also like to see advertising of gambling online or on television prohibited.

Curiously, this means you want UK consumers to behave more like their EU counterparts who are far more geared to saving, with societies offering less easy credit.

So there’s my hope, a greener, wider trading, stronger Britain with tighter borders, more responsible citizens and a more accountable government.

All v interesting thank you. As with all wish lists I fear that some of the more fundamental needs are the least likely to be addressed.

OP’s posts: See all

DonkeyMcFluff
Well for many manual workers it’s to do with no longer being undercut by Eastern Europeans. So if people want the work done they’ll have to pay a market rate to a British worker, and hopefully that will result in employers being able to offer people proper jobs instead of zero hour contracts. Of course it might not work out like that, but people voted hopefully because, let’s face it, the current situation is shit and change can only be a good thing. And as I said before, if the government had actually used their powers to address this issue earlier then those people wouldn’t have voted for Brexit.

I am not sure this follows for two reasons:

One is that rather unhelpfully, consumers have got used to paying certain rates for their goods and services. It's quite likely these consumers may decide not to buy in the first place if they have to pay a higher price.

And the second reason is, almost certainly the government will admit low priced workers from the Eu or the rest of the world, because workers in the UK will not do certain jobs at low rates.

So unfortunately leaving the EU may not change any of this - indeed it might make matters worse.

In fact; Covid is probably going to make your scenario even less likely because no Chancellor is going to take additional measures which could result in cutting the number of jobs in the UK resulting in less revenue for the country.

And please remember that the UK CHOSE to opt out of the EU's social protection measures which stops these issues arising in other Member States. If they had then less people would have voted Leave.

I voted leave because I do not want 'ever closer union'. I don't think that europeans should have a say in how the UK is governed, particularly ones we cannot vote for, and vice versa. I think that there will be disruption on leaving, and we will be slightly worse off in the short term. But our freedom is worth that. In the long term i think we will do well outside the EU.

Gah! If they hadn't!

don't think that europeans should have a say in how the UK is governed

Outsourcing UK government to whole another continent is a new level of ambition.

Krieger In the long term i think we will do well outside the EU.

But so far; only one or two Leave posters on this thread have been prepared to look towards to the future and explain HOW this will be achieved in concrete detail and what they would like UK laws and policies to look like when we diverge from the EU's roughly centre-leaning, christian social democratic model and plough our own furrow?

Blimey. Have lost any ability to align words so they provide meaning.

Outsourcing UK government to a whole other continent is a new level of ambition.

One is that rather unhelpfully, consumers have got used to paying certain rates for their goods and services. It's quite likely these consumers may decide not to buy in the first place if they have to pay a higher price.
There are certain jobs that need doing regardless of the price. If you need a plumber or a builder then you’ll have to stump up the cash. There may be less jobs overall but there will be more jobs which pay a living wage.

And the second reason is, almost certainly the government will admit low priced workers from the Eu or the rest of the world, because workers in the UK will not do certain jobs at low rates.
So give them visas for specific shortage occupations like other countries do. But don’t just let them come in with no specified occupation and do whatever they want, undercutting British workers, which is what was happening with freedom of movement within the EU.

@DonkeyMcFluff

One is that rather unhelpfully, consumers have got used to paying certain rates for their goods and services. It's quite likely these consumers may decide not to buy in the first place if they have to pay a higher price. There are certain jobs that need doing regardless of the price. If you need a plumber or a builder then you’ll have to stump up the cash. There may be less jobs overall but there will be more jobs which pay a living wage.

And the second reason is, almost certainly the government will admit low priced workers from the Eu or the rest of the world, because workers in the UK will not do certain jobs at low rates.
So give them visas for specific shortage occupations like other countries do. But don’t just let them come in with no specified occupation and do whatever they want, undercutting British workers, which is what was happening with freedom of movement within the EU.

In many ways I hope you are right.

But I still thing there is a pretty big risk that what you are saying in both of these instances, won't actually come to pass in reality, for all sorts of reasons relating to competitiveness once we are outside the EU.

@DonkeyMcFluff

1. If a workman is employed properly, the prices will rise. This will be then reflected in house prices, rents. And because there will be a scarcity of plumbers their prices (as for how much they are will to go and look at the pipe) will rise even further. And because of covid/brexit the company employing them of them if SA, will have to pay more taxes. The money for which they will have to somehow get from --> thus even more price hikes. Up to the point when it'll be that you have to wait 5 months for a plumber and save up for 6 years to pay it.

Now imagine this going on with many professions. It becomes unsustainable. LEading to your second point

1. Specialized visas. It will be needed as per above point. But at that point what is the guarantee that gov won't issue x times more visas than actually required? There needs to be a process to assess economic needs, see how much would flatten the demand curve to balance it out. It's highly complex given that it's not just plumbers but 1000s of job types.

In theory, within 5-10-20 years UK will get it right, as others have, of course. But until then it will be a huge strain on everyone.

1. You do know that EU citizens came here because the british are not willing to do a lot of low level jobs.... ?

How many brits do you see serving coffee in costa? I'm in London, so almost 0. Outside way more of course. But stay with London. EE people working in costa get exactly what brits would get, just brits don't stoop so low (generalizing), or they don't do cleaning in general... British people have became reliant on EE work, because they wanted cheap and didn't want to do it themselves. This will not change. The difference will be that you will have Indian plummers doing crap jobs potentially (not the same standard of education or professional qualification) for cheap. So how is that helping?

But so far; only one or two Leave posters on this thread have been prepared to look towards to the future and explain HOW this will be achieved in concrete detail and what they would like UK laws and policies to look like when we diverge from the EU's roughly centre-leaning, christian social democratic model and plough our own furrow?
We need to copy Australia and NZ. Strict immigration controls for shortage occupations only. Points tested visas, and the employer has to demonstrate that the role cannot be filled by a British person before they are permitted to recruit from abroad. Swiftly deport criminals and deny entry to anyone without a visa. Strict import controls, particularly on plant material because we don’t want Xylella to spread to the UK and decimate our trees. Abolish zero hour contracts and fake self employment which is used to deprive workers of their rights. Expand our manufacturing industry, encourage buying British and recycling. Invest in the north, particularly ex-industrial areas. Lower business taxes to drive entrepreneurship and innovation, tax breaks dnd support for startups. More support for families to help parents afford to work. Greater protections for people and animals, greater focus on equality and integration, and heavy penalties for hate crimes.

@DonkeyMcFluff

But so far; only one or two Leave posters on this thread have been prepared to look towards to the future and explain HOW this will be achieved in concrete detail and what they would like UK laws and policies to look like when we diverge from the EU's roughly centre-leaning, christian social democratic model and plough our own furrow? We need to copy Australia and NZ. Strict immigration controls for shortage occupations only. Points tested visas, and the employer has to demonstrate that the role cannot be filled by a British person before they are permitted to recruit from abroad. Swiftly deport criminals and deny entry to anyone without a visa. Strict import controls, particularly on plant material because we don’t want Xylella to spread to the UK and decimate our trees. Abolish zero hour contracts and fake self employment which is used to deprive workers of their rights. Expand our manufacturing industry, encourage buying British and recycling. Invest in the north, particularly ex-industrial areas. Lower business taxes to drive entrepreneurship and innovation, tax breaks dnd support for startups. More support for families to help parents afford to work. Greater protections for people and animals, greater focus on equality and integration, and heavy penalties for hate crimes.

Need to abandon lunch break now and get back to work but to reply to DonkeyMcFluff:

We need to copy Australia and NZ. Strict immigration controls for shortage occupations only. Points tested visas, and the employer has to demonstrate that the role cannot be filled by a British person before they are permitted to recruit from abroad.

-Maybe but our population and industry profile in AUS and NZ is very different from UK - so their system may not help our economy.

Swiftly deport criminals and deny entry to anyone without a visa.

• This will require a much more aggressive police enforcement = higher costs.

Strict import controls, particularly on plant material because we don’t want Xylella to spread to the UK and decimate our trees.

-Agree but this may limit our chances of reaching trade agreements with third countries

Abolish zero hour contracts and fake self employment which is used to deprive workers of their rights.

• As said before in my comment about Uber, this moves UK towards the core EU social standards that UK opted out of.

Expand our manufacturing industry, encourage buying British and recycling.*

• Subject to commitments in international agreements such as WTO and our bi-lateral trade agreements

Invest in the north, particularly ex-industrial areas. Lower business taxes to drive entrepreneurship and innovation, tax breaks dnd support for startups.
-Potentially conflicts with the desire to stop zero hours contracts etc

More support for families to help parents afford to work. Greater protections for people and animals, greater focus on equality and integration, and heavy penalties for hate crimes.
Agree on these! Hope they can come to fruition with potentially less money circulating in the economy.

You do know that EU citizens came here because the british are not willing to do a lot of low level jobs.... ?
How many brits do you see serving coffee in costa? I'm in London, so almost 0. Outside way more of course
But stay with London. EE people working in costa get exactly what brits would get, just brits don't stoop so low (generalizing), or they don't do cleaning in general

The problem is that serving coffee does not get you a London mortgage. How the EE people managed I don't know but I suspect it was homes of multiple occupation and shared rooms. Young people in the UK expect to buy their own homes, they can't do that in London unless on a professional salary due to house prices.
EE people worked in the UK partly because of teh exchange rate - in the 2000s the pound was high to EE countries and euro - so come here, work and send money back worth much more than could possibly be earned in home country. This situation has changed so less come here to work, but things haven't changed in EE countries so they still look for work abroad.
Workers are needed from abroad for fruit picking. It is partly lazy Brits but it is also benefits laws. You can't stop your benefit for a few months to pick berries, then step back into the system once it's done. YOu might now have earned too much to be entitled to benefits but the berries are all picked. If you have a housing assoc property you probably can't clear off for a few months to pick berries somewhere without risking your home.
I know of several British cleaners - all excellent btw.

Agree but this may limit our chances of reaching trade agreements with third countries
The economic consequences of Xylella in the EU are already estimated to approach £20bn. We need to sacrifice trade agreements if necessary because we MUST keep it out of the UK.

You can't stop your benefit for a few months to pick berries, then step back into the system once it's done.
This is a massive problem. You can’t work for a few weeks/months without being severely penalised. The system needs an overhaul to accommodate seasonal work and short term contracts.

As said before in my comment about Uber, this moves UK towards the core EU social standards that UK opted out of
The rich people running the UK opted out. But actual British people want these measures. The issues is that the government isn’t recognising the will of the people. I think that led a lot of people to vote Leave because they refused to be ignored any longer.

lazy brits

This is what passes for a left wing view nowadays?

And people still wonder why brexit happened?

Swiftly deport criminals

@DonkeyMcFluff your posts reading increasingly as xenophobic (if not outrightly racist). The majority of criminals are UK citizens.

And I echo others' words about the importing of cheap labour - it's because many UK citizens don't want these jobs.

And I echo others' words about the importing of cheap labour - it's because many UK citizens don't want these jobs
They don't want to be cheap labour - hardly surprising!! who does want to be cheap labour - answer no one. People are cheap labour because it's their best option - work for peanuts in Eastern Europe, pay towards health care or work for better peanuts in the U.K. with free healthcare.

You keep asking wqhat people want nothiung will change whether you want it anyway.

Remainers on here again, go on about how they can't understand why people voted to be worse off.

The Brexit vote was 4 years ago, people had 3 years of telling them how much of a bad idea it was, how they would be worse off, MP's flatly refusing to do what was voted for BOE Governor weighing in where he shouldn't.

Yet if it was such a compelling argument why did remain fail so dismally to convince those that voted Brexit to change by last years GE. It was all about Brexit yet the 2 remain parties got stuffed and attitudes actually hardened. It was made obvious it was up for grabs.

People actually don't want much a decent house that doesn't cost the earth and is secure (tenancy)
A job that actually pay the bills and puts food on the table and again has secure hours (as much as it can be) without relying on benefits
A decent education and opportunity for the kids.
The ability to see a doctor in a reasonable timeframe, again with procedures.

For a large section this is a million miles away.

Nobody trusts Johnson, speaks volumes about the country he has been London Mayor and PM.
But do you vote for someone who says they are going to do what was agreed, or someone who keeps telling you to go forth and multiply.

Ask yourselves why you failed so dismally?