Johnson has just warned the UK there will be no deal

[EmmaGrundyForPM]

I knew this was on the cards but now feel really sick.
Do you think he's bluffing to make the EU blink or is this it?

@larrygrylls
That post is awful. It does not matter if you agree with eating meat or not. Brexit will damage food standards, the US is desperately trying to prevent the consumer the choice between local produce and that from overseas. Food standards are lower in the us as are employment rights, this results in a race to the bottom in order to stay in business. As for saying that you can buy organic food who knows if you will be able to trust an organic label in the uk? What do you propose people who can't afford organic food do, or do they not matter?

@larrygrylls
If you care for animals so much why rip up a set of standards in favour of lower ones rather than push for tighter rules?

For those who love to eulogise about EU food standards and demonise the US, you might find the below interesting.

Of course, given identity politics today, and the fact it won’t reinforce your view, you will probably choose to ignore it.

foodsecurityindex.eiu.com/Index

foodsecurityindex.eiu.com/Index

I've looked at that site and the indicators being used are rather general ones about food security not food quality. Broad economic indicators are a big factor in a country's rank. This means that all developed countries end up with a high rank, because most people can afford to obtain their basic calorie needs, most people have a fridge, and not many people starve.

The food safety category is interesting. It is a composite score based on access to safe food storage (ie fridge ownership), the existence of a national food standards agency, and access to potable water. The US shamefully does not score 100% in this category, not because of dubious animal rearing practices (which aren't assessed at all, as far as I can see) - but because the world's richest nation cannot even supply drinking safe water to 100% to ifs population.

So, I rate that link as interesting but posted primarily as a 🐿 by someone who hadn't bothered to click through himself.

Going back to try the EU tax avoidance directive. You can also trace back the dates to ensure that the UK was out of the EU by 2019, when it was introduced.

I have to admit I am hazy on details and it takes a lot of googling because the msm had not reported this apart from the odd article in the guardian.

This directive had been known about for years prior to its its introduction. Some odd bods started advertising a sort of "how can we leave the eu" competition years ago. UKIP starts getting more power. David Cameron makes a ridiculous gamble with the referendum in 2016. That gives 2 years for article 50. Which should have taken the UK out by 2019. But Theresa May agreed to a transition period of 2 years (which BJ has refused to extend despite the insane covid situation).

I wonder though. That EU directive was transferred into UK law (I think!). Surely those tax-avoiding companies would have had to comply with it. Is it possible to just pull it back out again and effectively say "as you were" regarding tax? Or was that EU directive not enforced during the transition period?

Also why the hell is this in a tiny part of the internet and not being discussed in the bloody newspapers?!

Please correct me on any details. I'd love to know the full and correct intricacies of this.

Misti,

All of the indicators in the food survey matter.

However, on quality and safety, the US ranks 4th vs France’s 9th. I chose France to give the EU a chance, Greece would be a whole different kettle of fish.

I am not a fan of the current presidential incumbent but the US gets a v bad press among the so called progressives on here.

It is fairer than the EU in many ways.

Gosh Larry, it's like you didn't actually read my post and jumped straight to your whataboutery nonsense. At the moment I know where my meat is from and if I choose not to eat it because I am not satisfied with the standards in that country, I can. With a rule against labelling origins, I am unable to make an informed decision. That was my entire point, nothing more, nothing less.

And you are hugely unreasonable to accept that only wealthy people will be able to eat good quality, local produce. Everyone deserves safe food. No matter their income.

The EU were going to start putting the screws on ultra wealthy people who avoid paying tax.

BBC Reality Check November 2019;
"Claims about EU tax rules fact-checked" -

"Where it came from" -

"The idea seems to have originated in this article from August 2018 with the headline: "Is this the real reason why Farage and Rees-Mogg want a speedy Brexit?"

"It was written by two members of Lawyers Against Brexit, who were asked to comment for this piece but have declined to do so."

"The piece was still being linked to in March [2019] by Labour's David Lammy."

"it has been debunked a few times along the way by this extended blog post, and by Full Fact" -

www.bbc.co.uk/news/50168357

www.politax.com/post/is-brexit-really-about-tax-avoidance

fullfact.org/online/brexit-not-concealing-offshore-accounts/

Hunting in a pack today I see

Mistigri

You can believe in conspiracy theories if you like - I won't hold it against you.

Also why the hell is this in a tiny part of the internet and not being discussed in the bloody newspapers?!

Just what I’ve been thinking.

No deal is not a surprise to me. I was expecting this since May was pushed out to be honest. There is no way they will agree to anything! They are in different pages, from the beginning really. I cannot see them agreeing on anything.

Misti,

'on quality and safety,

You either have the reading comprehension of slug or you are posting in bad faith.'

Umm, I think that applies to you, rather than me.

Neither France nor the US scored 100% on food quality and safety. If it was this basic stuff, they would both have scored 100% and there would be no discussion.

The index that I linked to constitutes a lot of important factors about diet. There is no evidence that the US performs worse than the EU on any metrics. So, why the hatred of trading with them rather than the EU in food?

We need to introduce our own laws to protect food quality and, again, there is no evidence that we want to 'race to the bottom' here.

I’m generally a fan of “full fact” and similar but even reading their response does not reassure me that the long term plan isn’t to be able to do away with the current Uk law on such matters and being no longer held to EU law either standards lowering so that the wealthy (and powerful) can indeed change tax law in their favour.

So that’s not so much a rebuttal as “well that’s not how it is AT THE MOMENT and the people pointing this out were a bit vague and over simplified things” not that it can’t/won’t happen.

Surely they’re not stupid enough to actually SHOW their cards on this BEFORE we’re out of the eu and prove their critics right? Even if they’d possibly get away with it.

People in the UK are understandably quite attached to high food standards, and to having accurate labelling information. All the shilling in the world is very unlikely to make this a vote winning policy for the Tories. hear hear!

From a BRIEF google, it appears that for the non-English Uk countries it MAY be possible to protect some standards as public health and indirectly through that food safety could possibly be considered a devolved matter.

Certainly here in Scotland we have our own food standards agency, maybe northern Englanders will start shopping in southern Scotland shops?

And the particular elements of food safety being discussed here are devolved matters - labelling etc

As for the appalling LACK of real journalism in the Uk today - I barely have words! Thank fuck for sm actually (with all its faults, at least it doesn’t try its damnedest to hide things which it doesn’t suit the great and powerful for us to know!)

I cannot see them agreeing on anything.

I can (although looking less likely) - is Barnier still coming to London on Tuesday?

It was the risk the Brexit people took. Better that than forever under the thumb of the EU.

I've listened to not much else for the last 2 days. . My brother is delighted. "It's what we voted for". No I fucking didn't. :(

Now I remember why I don't usually spend more than a couple of hours with family.

I do hope they are still talking. I did not know Barnier was travelling, but they should have a chat.
I still think they will not get passed a single point, and I think extensions are off too.

Another Full Fact article here - Sept. 2019;

"An article in the Byline Times, which has been shared tens of thousands of times on social media, makes a series of claims about donors to Vote Leave and Boris Johnson’s leadership campaign standing to profit from a no deal Brexit."

"But at least one key part of the article—a claim that the number of “short positions” taken by hedge funds increased dramatically in the lead up to Boris Johnson’s election as Conservative leader—seems likely to be based on a misunderstanding of the data."

"In reality, no such spike in the number of short positions seems to have occurred" ...

"The Financial Times has also raised a number of issues with the article, notably with the premise that a short position is necessarily a “bet on no deal” as the article suggests. For example, they point out that some companies would likely benefit from a no deal Brexit; shorting them would be effectively be betting against no deal."

fullfact.org/economy/short-positions/

'I do hope they are still talking. I did not know Barnier was travelling, but they should have a chat.
I still think they will not get passed a single point, and I think extensions are off too.'

All smoke and mirrors at this point. UK hoping EU will fracture and EU hoping that we will cave.

I am sure that we will get something, even if temporary. Certainly, the FX and equity markets seem to think so. Sterling hardly blinked when Boris spoke.

No extensions now, MushMonster, the Tories passed a law to prevent it. You'd have to repeal the law then agree an extension and it's not likely to happen.

What kind of deal will UK get with USA?
Is what I am interested in now.
Do you think USA agricultural goods will be easy to spot, if I know I want to avoid their lower standards on certain types of food products?

I don't think I mind chlorinated chicken, but I'm quite unhappy with antibiotic-heavy hormone-doused meat & milk production, a beef production system that uses veal crates or corn syrup in many things.

I know it's easy to say, but I have always thought No Deal was the intention all along. Preparations have been taking place since 2016. So this latest development doesn't surprise me. www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/no-deal-brexit-uk-preparations