Westministender: Amen to that!

[RedToothBrush]

On the Anniversary of the Battle of Britain, Johnson went to Westminster Abbey and was trolled. Its almost divine in its irony.

In a week where just about the entire right wing press has turned on him, for being... well shit... They have the dawning realisation that yes all those annoying lefties were right all along when they said he was full of nothing but hot air. He's been ridiculed for being paid £150,000 a year and not being able to feed his 5000 kids and the pictures to mark the anniversary of him becoming PM do little more than look like a man who couldn't tie his own shoe laces without a nanny to help him.

But its not really a laughing matter. This man doesn't understand what legal agreements he's signed so his solution to his ineptitude is to throw his toys out of the pram together with the rule of law. Which he also does not understand.

Johnson is also ever increasingly keen on ripping up inconvient human right and workers right and he has ample opportunity to do all this in the middle of a pandemic.

Unfortunately the hypocrisy of his cronies isn't exactly helping the behaviour of the public and you have to pity the poor behavioural scientists who have to tell him that 'of course the public are going to give you the vs when you tell them you shouldn't do this when your chief advisor claims to be maybe going blind'.

It seems the whole government strategy on managing the virus seems to be falling flat on its face rather sooner than planned cos they stuck Dildo in charge who wouldn't know her Rs from her elbow if it hit her in the face. And we've got Hancock going full on 1984, telling us not to believe the reports that no one can get a test because its all lies - except half the country has either first hand experience of the travesty of Track and Trace or has a close mate who they know is a hell of a lot more reliable than any of these fuckwits when it comes to telling the truth.

Meanwhile in America Bader Ginsburg has managed to die at possibly the most inconvient and dangerous time possible just as the future of democracy in the US is clinging on by its finger nails.

And yes. Money laundering. Haven't we talked about that a lot on these threads. Its almost as if FinCEN was predictable...

Taking back control was always about the elite taking back control from the masses. But if you've managed to keep following all this time, we've been saying that since April 2016 and no one listened then, so why would they start listening now?

[quote BigChocFrenzy]Raab has to convey a simple message - and fucks up that one thing

Raab was confusing 🤦🏻‍♀️ in a Sky News interview
and I've already had to correct an MN poster whothinks Raab meant that 7% of airport positives are false

SkyNews@SkyNews

Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab says the "challenge" with testing for ‪#COVID19‬ in airports is 'the very high false positive rate'
and adds 'only 7% of tests will be successful in identifying those who have the virus'.
(video)
[[https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1308655561081225217]]

What Raab meant - if he understood the governments own publications -
is that there is a very high false negative rate especially on day of arrival

This government study on double testing for airport arrivals showed that
on day of arrival, only 7% of infected people showed as positive

However, after isolation, a 2nd test picked up 86% of those infected on day 6, or 98% if tested on day 10

Investigation into the effectiveness of “double testing” travellers incoming to the UK for signs of COVID-19 infection

[[https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/909382/s0544-phe-double-testing-travellers-170620-sage-42.pdf]][/quote]
That’s the study that shows that pre flight testing and then testing on arrival picks up the 7% of people that became detectable over the duration of the flight?

Starmer has a massive image problem as a Remoaner. Of course he is going to play as many patriotism cards as he can. We have to suck it up and let Labour do this if it is what gets a sizeable number of people away from the "it's Johnson and the Tories because there is no one else " idea.
He ain't no Tony Blair but his biggest appeal is being a competent grown up who has stood up to tough challenges in his life in the real world. And his origins are pretty humble.

Sabrina That study is on double testing scenarios specifically for airport arrivals

On arrival, only 7% of infections are picked up by the 1st test, because most people were newly infected
and it was too early for enough virus to be present to be detectable

The 2nd test (after a few days isolation) picks up most infections, because the virus has grown enough by then: a the 2nd test picked up 86% of those infected on day 6, or 98% if tested on day 10

So it is illustrates false negatives when testing too early
and the importance of isolating all arivals from higher risk areas, regardless of the results of the first test,
at least - if test 1 is negative - until after a later 2nd test

Of course he is going to play as many patriotism cards as he can.

What like Trump does?

He ain't no Tony Blair but his biggest appeal is being a competent grown up who has stood up to tough challenges in his life in the real world.

Blair is remembered negatively, quite rightly for the Iraq war. He's not a template to be replicated. Haven't most people stood up to tough challenges in their lives?

I understand Starmer's position. The Tories wrapped the bill in the flag and the right wing press would have framed Labour's response as unpatriotic. This was only the second reading and there was no question that the bill would get through with Johnson's majority. Starmer, rightly in my view, decided that this was not the hill to die on. Better to articulate arguments when you can rip it apart further down the line.
I think it's a bit like his Brexit position. There's no votes in being blamed as a remoaner thwarting the will of the people. Take a step back. Johnson's Brexit is fast running out of road. Make him own the shit show that we all know it is whilst all the while offering your support. He's clever.

But it specifically points out that 7% of infected people that screen negative before their flight will test positive on arrival because they have become detectable during the duration of flight.

Of course, you’ve already taken out all the people that tested positive before the flight so all that shows is that a very small number of people become detectable during the flight?

@bellinisurge

Starmer has a massive image problem as a Remoaner. Of course he is going to play as many patriotism cards as he can. We have to suck it up and let Labour do this if it is what gets a sizeable number of people away from the "it's Johnson and the Tories because there is no one else " idea. He ain't no Tony Blair but his biggest appeal is being a competent grown up who has stood up to tough challenges in his life in the real world. And his origins are pretty humble.

.... It depends on what Starmer decides we must suck up, what principles must be compromised

Granting immunity to investigation for war crimes like murder or torture is a horrendous step along the wrong path
and again against international law, this time against the most serious criminal law

I think the takeaway from that PHE paper is that testing on arrival and then a testing again a few days later would reduce the nonsense of a blanket 14 quarantine period.

@SabrinaThwaite

But it specifically points out that 7% of infected people that screen negative before their flight will test positive on arrival because they have become detectable during the duration of flight.

Of course, you’ve already taken out all the people that tested positive before the flight so all that shows is that a very small number of people become detectable during the flight?

It shows why testing on arrival is not sufficient, why a 2nd test is necessary some days later, after isolation and after how many days It is important

and Raab should not have muddled it up so that many people confused it with false positives.
It is a particular situation of flase negatives and the strategy to deal with it

@SabrinaThwaite

I think the takeaway from that PHE paper is that testing on arrival and then a testing again a few days later would reduce the nonsense of a blanket 14 quarantine period.

.... It was not a nonsense given the lack of knowledge at the time It was not known beforehand how many positives would be found on which day

In fact 98% would be by day 10, but only 85% by day 5
So day 10 would be better to reduce infection spread

The nonsense was in countries allowing millions of people to fly abroad during a pandemic
Countries that did so have had a wave of cases traced back to all those people
e.g. Weeks of reports from the RKI documenting this in germany

(Much more difficult to successfully tackle a very large number of small infections compared to a couple of large outbreaks at say a food plant)

Granting immunity to investigation for war crimes like murder or torture is a horrendous step along the wrong path
and again against international law, this time against the most serious criminal law

Incredibly isn't it? Bloody Sunday is proof enough that accountability is so important.

It is a nonsense because that paper was published 6 weeks ago and the Government is still insisting on 14 days quarantine despite testing on day 6, 7 or 8 picking up between 85% and 96% of cases.

There’s a similar paper from July pointing out the same thing.

Blair is remembered negatively, quite rightly for the Iraq war.

People who like revenge served cold will smile grimly as Blairs karma guarantees he will be ignored as the UK slips to become like the Iraq he destroyed.

And you might just want to hold your tongue before saying ...but innocent people are suffering unless you want to see God smile.

Mistigri - could you explain why that is? If they vote against are they somehow closing the door on an amendment?

OK so as I understand it

• Labour doesn't disagree with all the provisions of the bill
• it will seek amendments at the committee stage; traditionally in this situation opposition parties abstain and then seek to amend (this is how grown up politics works)
• It has another chance to vote against at the third reading

I think Starmer is promoting a return to more pragmatic, less partisan, more adult political strategies along with greater respect for parliamentary tradition and democratic norms. He can't do this without the support of his shadow ministers.

Not really relevant to the discussion, but I don’t think that it’s a ‘false negative’ if you do the test too early to detect the virus, it’s just a test performed too early! A false negative would be a negative result, due to either bad swabbing or test failure, when virus is present at a high enough level to be detected.

@bellinisurge

Starmer has a massive image problem as a Remoaner. Of course he is going to play as many patriotism cards as he can. We have to suck it up and let Labour do this if it is what gets a sizeable number of people away from the "it's Johnson and the Tories because there is no one else " idea. He ain't no Tony Blair but his biggest appeal is being a competent grown up who has stood up to tough challenges in his life in the real world. And his origins are pretty humble.

He does now. But when everything goes tits up after Christmas, it will be a plus.

The Leave mandate was discharged with Johnson's majority and getting the WA through. I think Starmer's right to be emphasing that we have now withdrawn, so let's see this Brexit then. I am pretty sure that we told Leavers that Kent would be one big Operation Stack, but I don't think anyone expected to need a permit to travel to a county in England.

He absolutely needs to nail Brexit as a Tory failure.

Re the permits to access Kent: a passport will suffice, surely?

Starmer was correct to abstain and wait on that bill.
He cannot stop the Government getting legislation through
but he can be seen to try to moderate it.

With an 80 seat Govt majority, his best position is to say
Give the people what they voted for
and watch the Tories fail

Quite a few anti Boris articles in the Italian press. He’s drawn the fire onto him by insinuating that Italians and Germans do not have a tradition of liberty.

How to win friends and influence people.

Sorry, I've been having problems with sleep so slow to follow this -
Is this a permit for lorry drivers / import /exporters re Kent OR
A passport / permit for ordinary folk to visit family or friends in Kent?

I think it's just a permit for lorry drivers. I can't see it being anything but completely shambolic though.

52andBlue
Re Kent : good question
because the Govt has no idea how many people import and export in small vehicles through the Channel crossings.
Lorries will be stopped deffo. Vans maybe. Large cars, goodness knows.
Let alone people in Kent then drop-shipping around the country

I think people are in for a shock if they think the Brexit fallout will be blamed entirley on the Tories and the electorate turn away from them.