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Westminstenders: Run Forrest Run

989 replies

RedToothBrush · 28/08/2020 09:47

Need i say more?

Westminstenders: Run Forrest Run
OP posts:
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32
wherearemychickens · 03/09/2020 23:23

I have to say I don't get the labelling thing. Surely at the moment they are producing food for export with labels that comply with EU regulations? Is it a rules of origin thing because we'll be a third country so the labelling is different?

Peregrina · 03/09/2020 23:30

I too will stock up on tea, loo rolls and I am not sure what else yet.

Back in the immediate aftermath of the Referendum I am pretty sure that most thought we would go for an EEA type arrangement. That was then.

Now everyone who voted Tory in December last year voted for this. They knew that they were voting for a party which had chosen a liar and a cheat to lead them. They knew that the decent Tory MPs had been chased out of the party. So if they had stopped to think for one second they would have known that Johnson's promises were empty. So tough luck, I am not going to shed any tears for them.

BTW where is Clavinova to tell us how wonderful this all is?

Peregrina · 03/09/2020 23:37

I assume that as a third country we have no obligation to keep to EU regs, so even if firms say that they comply, there is no way of enforcing this. The EU would have to take our word for it. The UK Govt's word has most definitely not been its bond these last 4 1/2 years, so it would be not unreasonable to assume that our food labelling was worthless as far as compliance is concerned.

wherearemychickens · 03/09/2020 23:58

What an utter, utter shitshow this is all going to be.

BlackeyedSusan · 04/09/2020 02:03

Solihull is where Birmingham airport is, and EMidlands airport is in Leicestershire I think. Certainly very near to where Notts, Derbyshire, and Leicestershire meet.

pinkbalconyrailing · 04/09/2020 06:02

The EU would have to take our word for it.

but that's just one of the sticky points. the EU will not just take a EU company's word for it. it will insist on comprehensive export papers and/or compliance certification.

QueenOfThorns · 04/09/2020 06:30

@wherearemychickens

I went through Jack Monroe's Tin Can book today and wrote down every tinned item she uses to add to the Brexit stash.
I bought that book last year. I went through and selected the recipe most likely to appeal to my fussy DD and gave it a go. She still cites it as the most horrible food I’ve cooked ever Grin
quiteathome · 04/09/2020 07:14

Stocking up on coffee beans, tea, frozen fruit and veg. (As much as can fit in the freezer). Toilet paper, paracetamol, toothpaste,

The usual cans, tomatoes, beans, peaches, pineapple, soups, pulses

Jars of olives and peppers, jars of pasta sauce

Dried stuff including pasta and rice

And I will add in wine.

quiteathome · 04/09/2020 07:16

I will also get vitamin supplements for everyone. Although I don't really agree with them I will add them in as a just incase. Especially if vitamin D does protect against Covid.

yoikes · 04/09/2020 07:44

I live in one of those areas.
I should write to my MP but....you're right. What's the point? They voted for this.
Ordered more flour (gone up in price since Monday!) And more vit d.
Good offer on amazon - £12 for a years supply (365 Tablets).
Planning on one of two more purchases before end of year (nothing major) then thats it.
Batten down the hatches and hope for the best I guess.

yoikes · 04/09/2020 07:46

I do wonder if rabid brexshitters are stockpiling...?
They shouldn't be, really.
Coz, you know, easiest trade deal in history, oven ready deal etc...?

HoneysuckIejasmine · 04/09/2020 08:04

I need more frozen veg, but otherwise I think we'll be ok.

Chersfrozenface · 04/09/2020 08:08

Need to empty the freezer, defrost and refill. Need to throw out the dishwasher that hasn't worked for two years and turn its space into a cupboard to be filled with tins and packets. Need to reorganise the booze cupboard.

Better get on with it, then.

borntobequiet · 04/09/2020 08:24

I must restock but unsure about wine. The last four years have seen me drinking far too regularly, and Covid didn't help. If I don't stockpile wine I could detox...perhaps.
Listened to Today on the way to work, it's a staple of my commute. Is it only me that finds Nick Robinson and Martha Kearney more irritating and patronising on a daily basis? Robinson was arrogant and dismissive of the head of the road hauliers association outlining their today and Kearney appeared to be actively defending HS2 rather than asking questions of her interviewee. She drives me nuts because she starts all her questions with a querulous "but" which reminds me of my SIL, who I'm fond of but irritated by a lot of the time.

mathanxiety · 04/09/2020 08:29

@Clavinova

mathanxiety
"Especially the one where you decided to split hairs on the definition of healthcare worker"

Amnesty International made the distinction in their report - the report that led to this discussion. What do you think then of the "Daily numbers, graphs, analysis thread" on Mumsnet? I see that BigChoc has started thread number 16 - do you think it's appropriate to be discussing ONS data (deaths) for example?

Let's just stick with the thread at hand, since that is the one where you are refusing to admit that healthcare workers worked without adequate PPE, and often paid the ultimate price for government callousness and incompetence.

You prefer to split hairs when it comes to healthcare worker deaths, and you prefer to refer me to other threads instead of answering posts of mine. It seems you have painted yourself into a completely unnecessary corner for some reason.

You were so eager to criticise me that you dismissed the concerns in the article out of hand, thereby normalising and minimising the deaths of BME/BAME nurses and other BAME healthcare workers.

Yet another attempt to distract from your refusal to admit that even one healthcare worker death is one too many, and that the government caused those deaths by its ineptitude wrt PPE. That is, the deaths of all the healthcare workers who have died from covid. 'Leaving aside the racial divide' doesn't mean what you are really, really reaching to accuse me of.

The numbers in the article I linked make it clear that the government dropped the ball in an egregiously serious way. Are you disputing that?

www.nursingtimes.net/news/coronavirus/visa-fears-mean-filipino-nurses-feel-unable-to-say-no-during-crisis-25-05-2020/
Do you feel that the 'hostile environment' engineered by several Tory governments in succession has contributed to the fears of Filipino nurses expressed in this article? If not, what on earth are they talking about, with their fears about visas?

Peregrina · 04/09/2020 08:38

I logged onto Conservative Home, to get a feel for how the wind was blowing in Tory land. Oh my! Some still blaming Labour who haven't been in Government for 10 years, a good few in the mould of Clavinova - isn't this all so wonderful, and relatively few saying it's not what they voted for.

I could not help but think, what a bunch of idiots - the Tory party has become a cult. I wonder what they think of the new lorry parks about to be built near them?

Clavinova · 04/09/2020 08:43

The Oxford Union, 5th October 2018;

A former Rhodes Scholar, Tony Abbott served as the Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015. Abbott's time in office witnessed the cutting of 'red tape' in Australian regulation, the introduction of legislation intended to prevent illegal immigration, and the signing of free trade deals with China, Japan, and South Korea. He will be speaking on the title 'Brexit - Be Happy'

www.oxford-union.org/node/1777

Clavinova · 04/09/2020 08:44

a good few in the mould of Clavinova

Crossed post! Grin

RedToothBrush · 04/09/2020 08:53

Been a little busy with real life stuff.

Peter Foster's thread from yesterday is worth c and ping not just linking to.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
🚨🇪🇺🇬🇧🚛🚚🚄🚢☄️☄️🚨
Logistics & customs industries firing distress flares now over pace of #brexit border preps.

Demanding urgent high-level meeting with ⁦michaelgove⁩ ⁦RishiSunak⁩ ⁦grantshapps⁩ via FT 1/thread
amp.ft.com/content/49af99f3-4669-4654-a444-4e5e9635791c?__twitter_impression=true
Industry warns of Brexit border chaos
UK logistics groups call for meeting with Gove and Sunak as concerns rise over preparations

First the letter itself - short but sweet - and important to note that it comes from the experts. The groups that actually move stuff and do stuff. I am not an expert, I can only report their concerns - which they are clearly now escalating. /2

There are also other signatories to that letter - including some household name logistics companies - for which discretion is the better part of valour.

But they are deeply worried on three counts:
1) IT not being ready
2) Biz having no time to adjust
3) Govt not listening /3

Let's take each in turn. First the IT not being ready.

There are about 10 new IT systems business will have to grapple with, three of which are UK Govt related.

These include the new SmartFreight App and the GVMS pre-lodgement system for goods going UK-EU /4

They are not ready and industry doesn't have its hands on them in order to get used to them.

For example the SmartFreight App that is supposed stop traffic jams in Kent.

As Sarah Laouadi of @LogisticsUKSL says even it it is ready by oct/nov how will biz adjust? /5

This is a classic of the Whitehall solution that doesn't take into account ground realities - for example 85% of cross channel freight is in EU lorries. That means the App has to work for French, Romanian, Hungarian....etc /6

And this - to take point 2, adjustment - is where biz is starting to lose it's temper with the government that simply seems to fail to grasp the scale of what is being asked of it.

As Robert Windsor of @BIFA tells me there is a "complete lack of appreciation" of this. /7

To give you one example that I was quoted by a logistics expert who has been engaging with govt.

He said they had no idea how long it takes to 'cleanse/scrub' datasets to make them compatible for use in customs documentation...it can take months. /8

This is why the letter contains such a heartfelt plea to "to take seriously our concerns and listen to the detail during this roundtable" - it is a cry for help. Yes officials listen, take notes, send them up the chain - but politically it doesn't seem to cut through /9

You'd think at this late stage, this message might have got through.

But obviously not. The govt has lots of paper plans. They look good on slides.

But they have to work in the real world. /10

There will be lots of talk of "project fear" - and I guess we'll find out soon enough if all these expert groups and companies are just making this stuff up.

But take a read of the govt Border Operating Model - only 100 pages... /11

t.co/lqbp7EQiX3

When you consider where we are now - and then what will be required...it boggle the mind a bit, to put it mildly.

Even with a six-month phase in period for EU-GB, companies have to be fully ready to send stuff to EU on day 1...it doesn't sound like we'll be ready. /12

As Shane Brennan @ColdChainShane from the Cold Chain Federation says, industry is pretty much resigned “Engaging in transition discussions with Government requires of us a certain suspension of disbelief about the scale and complexity of what is promised..." /13

Richard Burnett @RHARichardB puts the industry position in a nutshell: “The government has to listen and grasp the detail, because the issues being raised are not being resolved fast enough.”

If does all go pear-shaped, no-one can say there weren't warnings. ENDS

I do think that wherever government says 'we've got an app for that!' every single media outlet should be all over it immediately, as I'm yet to hear of a planned much hyped government IT project a) working b) being delivered on time. We've said this for over 4 years now on these threads and frankly I'm sick of sounding like a broken record. This is just embarrassing on just about every level.

There is also this important thread from yesterday. Pay attention to point 15:

Anton Spisak @antonspisak
It's true, as @JGForsyth says, that No10 prefers no-deal to a deal that would curb UK ability to subsidise domestic business. But this view is based on a false view of the reality. No-deal would, in fact, be a double surrender on state aid (THREAD)
www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/johnson-sees-no-deal-as-better-than-surrender-t5sf30chw
Johnson sees no-deal as better than surrender
EU demands for a level playing field on state aid would stymie No 10’s ambition to build tech giants to take on the world

1. First, the facts. Deal or no deal, the UK has already committed to EU state aid rules after the end of the transition period (December 31 2020). Article 10, NI Protocol, Withdrawal Agreement.

2. This niche but important provision means that any future UK subsidies that "affect trade" between Northern Ireland and the EU will be (a) bound by EU state aid rules (= the UK will have to follow relevant EU state aid legislation listed in the Withdrawal Agreement);

3. (b) Future UK subsidies, if they fall under EU rules, will have to be approved by the European Commission, just as today; and (c) the UK will have to comply with the Commission's rulings as if it were an EU member-state.

4. The result is that if, for example, the Commission decided that a UK subsidy was unlawful, the UK Govt would be instructed to withdraw the subsidy from a firm. If it refused to do so, the UK could end up before the European Court of Justice. (Art 12/13, NI Protocol)

5. The problem for Boris Johnson, whether he likes it or not, is that the bar for subsidies that qualify for these rules is very low. They only have to "affect trade" between NI and the EU, which means that a lot of future UK subsidies to GB firms will be affected too. Why?

6. Because subsidies given to GB firms that trade within the UK internal market - including with Northern Ireland - could easily affect trade between NI and the EU. Supply chains are pretty complex these days. Realistically, when could this happen?

7. If, for example, (i) the UK Govt gives a subsidy to a company based in GB with a subsidiary in NI (because extra funds could give a NI subsidiary an advantage over EU companies competing in NI).

8. OR (ii) if the Govt gives a subsidy to a GB company producing goods which are exported to NI (such as cars assembled in GB, because cheaper goods could unfairly displace EU imports into NI);

9. OR (iii) if the Govt gives a subsidy for a service provided by a company in GB which leads to a lower price of a good in NI (eg, aid to a GB bank servicing a NI client);

10. OR (iv) if the Govt gives a UK-wide subsidy benefiting to NI companies and/or consumers (such as a tax benefit for energy consumers or a UK-wide furlough scheme). In other words, a plenty of opportunities for future UK subsidies to meet the low bar in the NI Protocol.

11. An example: if the Govt awarded future aid to Nissan, a GB-based car manufacturer, this would likely fall under EU state aid rules under the NI Protocol. So, the EU could argue, under the withdrawal agmt, that the UK should seek ex-ante approval for aid from the Commission.

12. Not ideal, if you're Boris Johnson. The problem grows bigger if the UK doesn't convince the EU that it operates a robust state-aid regime for GB. This would prompt the EU to use the NI protocol to protect itself against potentially unfair subsidies and bring in new disputes.

13. This legal reality is actually so bad that the UK Govt will no doubt, seek to renegotiate the state aid clause through a Joint Committee under the Withdrawal Agmt. But what reason does Bxl have to drop the stick before it knows the shape of UK post-Brexit state aid policy?

14. None - Brussels won't renegotiate it before the future UK-EU treaty. So, if there is no other reason why No10 might want a robust post-Brexit state aid regime, it should be to avoid damaging consequences of its own choices from the re-negotiated Northern Ireland protocol.

15. If No10 doesn't set up a credible state aid regime at home, and instead walks away with no-deal, it risks ending up with both a significant economic cost of no-deal and an extraterritorial limit on its ability to subsidise its businesses.

16. We're now in a bizarre situation when No10 is prepared to take the risk of no-deal
- and to accept its enormous consequences economically and politically
- in the hope of securing an unattainable goal of full control of the post-Brexit state-aid policy. Astounding. (ends)

So the government ability to bail out industries - for any reason - after 31st December is limited even if we get no deal.

We are in a worst of both world situation over this.

Johnson is now getting himself in a pickle with criticism over uturns amongst his own party and being labelled as governing in hindsight which is a very fair description. He now is painted into a corner where he will have to accept a deal which will involve a uturn - in order to keep trade flowing and food coming into the country - or face a disaster of glittering proportions where we are taken to court whilst we starve. And journalists at very reputable newspapers are accused of lying and scaremongering.

I suspect that this may become Johnson's hill to die on.

On that note i noticed this remarkable story in the ft about how big moneymakers, manipulated the market via the newspapers, made money off it in a huge fraud and then intimated, harassed and put them under surveillance as well as threatening to sue or have these journalists exposing the truth arrested.

Its a good case study in basically how society is being run at present, with the decline of media standards. In this particular case, i do note Germany’s weakness in the media too which is a worrying sign. We already know that Germany has had a problem with financial scandals hitting banks which went unchecked by authorities for far too long. Its something that leaves Germany dangerously exposed to what has happened here in the long term. I find it deeply concerning.

www.ft.com/content/745e34a1-0ca7-432c-b062-950c20e41f03
Wirecard and me: Dan McCrum on exposing a criminal enterprise
Intimidation, surveillance and conspiracy theories: inside the FT’s five-year investigation of a billion-dollar fraud

Westminstenders: Run Forrest Run
OP posts:
Peregrina · 04/09/2020 08:54

Yes Clavinova - we know about cutting red tape - Grenfell.
Illegal in my book means outside the law, so it won't matter two hoots what the legislation says when it comes to preventing it.

If you are happy to support a man who is a disgraced former head of a country, you are perfectly entitled to do so.

Any thoughts on the lorry parks, or its it OK because they are not near you?

Clavinova · 04/09/2020 09:00

November 2019;

"Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi met Mr Tony Abbott, Former Prime Minister of Australia today."

"The Prime Minister fondly recalled his visit to Australia in November 2014 for G-20 Summit in Brisbane, productive bilateral engagements in Canberra, Sydney and Melbourne and his address to the Joint Session of the Australian Parliament."

"The Prime Minister also warmly acknowledged the role of Mr. Tony Abbott in strengthening India-Australia relations."

www.narendramodi.in/pm-s-meeting-with-mr-tony-abbott-former-prime-minister-of-australia-547373

mathanxiety · 04/09/2020 09:00

Tony Abbott - is that the reviled climate change denier, covid denier, homophobic, sexist pig Tony Abbott about whom a Barack Obama advisor said he was 'very sure of himself without knowing what he was talking about', or someone else with the same name?

Clavinova · 04/09/2020 09:05

Peregrina
we know about cutting red tape

Have you told President Macron?
"Cutting red tape and boosting investment on the cards."

www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/macron-sets-out-next-phase-of-plan-to-turn-france-into-startup-nation-1.3535830

RedToothBrush · 04/09/2020 09:12

@Peregrina

Yes Clavinova - we know about cutting red tape - Grenfell. Illegal in my book means outside the law, so it won't matter two hoots what the legislation says when it comes to preventing it.

If you are happy to support a man who is a disgraced former head of a country, you are perfectly entitled to do so.

Any thoughts on the lorry parks, or its it OK because they are not near you?

The scandal that is now unfolding about the fall out from that is staggering.

Due to no one accepting responsibility for replacing cladding, people living in flats are facing bills they can not possibly afford.

In addition to that they cant sell their properties because of the outstanding costs that might be incurred.

And new requirements for electrical safety, are impossible to get hold of due to a lack of trained electrician able to certify buildings (at another considerable cost to residents). Social housing is being prioritised which leaves some people facing a four year wait to be certified.

This is also affecting their ability to remortgage. Without the certificate they are unable to (which also means they cant remortgage to pay extortionate bills to pay for removal of cladding). Apparently flats for sale across Manchester are being advertised for 'cash buyers only' because of the scale of the problem.

I suspect they also cant get insurance too because they dont have the right certificate. Because no insurance company is willing to take on that level of risk.

Red tape earlier, which would stop so many people dying, stops red tape that springs from problems. Business creates its own red tape to minimise risks that have been highlighted by catastrophic failures of regulation. And that always affects those less affluent. So not only do the 'little people' get shafted in ways which endanger their lives, they also end up having to pay for the privilege of government supporting less red tape rather than enforcing it.

Red tape never disappears. It just changes in terms of where it appears and who foots the bill for it both in lives and finances.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 04/09/2020 09:12

Modi - a shining beacon when it comes to upholding human rights! Or not.
If Macron is as big a fool as the people in this Government, that makes it OK does it?
Lack of red tape - Grenfell - unnecessary deaths.
Lack of PPE because of Govt policy - unnecessary deaths. Just because some other countries have also been shit doesn't make it right.

I do wonder Clavinova, what will happen when they eventually come after something which is dear to you. Who will be around to speak up for you?