Westminstenders: Run Forrest Run

[RedToothBrush]

Need i say more?

Indeed. Have the Tories ever Openly said to the working people of this nation - those currently staffing the care homes, the hospitals, the schools, the factories, the workshops - that they do not care about the possibility of melamine or other chemical adulterations added to baby milk, or sawdust added to flour? Or the complete abolition of any laws on break times or length of working days? “Because some can’t afford it”, rather than explaining, lest alone changing the appalling inequalities that result in the working population of the “sixth richest nation” on the planet being unable to afford basic health standards?

When have the Tories ever come clean and explained what “there is no society only individuals” actually meant? Or what the Victorian Age they’ve always banged on about was actually like for most of the people working to drive it? Not for the bloody pensioners, not for the lords in charge of the factories, but for the people deprived of the results of their never-ending labour?

More people think "Downton Abbey" is a documentary than a lot of old wank, so people are already expert on the Victorian and Edwardian ages. What a larf we 'ad eh ?

It shows up the splits in the Brexit camp beautifully - it was always too complex for a binary answer. I believe many of those who voted for Brexit (demographics of the vote show pensioners were highly represented, remember) did so because they wanted to be pulled out of a globalised race to the bottom, not forced to become the very lowest rung of the global poor. None of this was ever openly said or allowed to be discussed. All we’ve heard since is a succession of 3 word slogans and #nodebate.

it was the stasis much more than the vote itself that caused the bafflement of other nations

It really, really wasn't.
Other nations looked on in bafflement as the UK organised a referendum to make life considerably more difficult for the vast majority of its citizens and when enough of those citizens swallowed obvious falsehoods and voted for chaos and isolation in the name of undefined and undefinable "sovereignty".

The fact that after the referendum there was a hiatus wasn't baffling; it was predictable because leaving is so difficult, harmful and unnecessary - a bit like someone who's just shot themselves in the foot and stands gaping in horrified amazement, unsure of what to do. No one found that baffling.
What caused bafflement abroad was how utterly abysmal UK "negotiators" have been, how mendaciously rude many politicians are about the EU, and the stunningly obvious ineptitude of May and now Johnson.

It's quite remarkable for a state like the UK consecutively to elect such bad leaders, particularly when one is known to be a lazy liar and everyone realises that strong leadership is needed after that kind of referendum.

Toptotoe thank you for contributing to the thread.
People voted for the Tories because of Johnson's 3-word slogan, 'Get Brexit Done'.

He hasn't "done" it yet though, has he? Or maybe the progress is below my radar. Can you help? For example, by summarising the progress made towards the UK's future trading relationships with EU and non-EU countries.

People voted for the Tories because of Johnson's 3-word slogan, 'Get Brexit Done'. []He hasn't "done" it yet though, has he?

The UK left the EU 31st January 2020. So yes. He did it.

There really is no more need for Leavers to do anything more now. Which - as this thread shows - is a good job too, since they clearly have fuck all intention of doing anything. Certainly they don't want to understand the position the UK is now in, let alone where it's headed.

Brexit is done.
It happened on 31st January at 11pm

What has to be sorted by the end of this year is how the UK
will actually trade with the rest of the world
which has rather befuddled the Brexiters since
well ever actually

There is no Remain as the UK has left.
There will be no Rejoin for at least a decade
there is only

• WTO rules trade trashing the UK
• Single Market alignment with the EU allowing all the other trade deals to fall into place

Those who promoted Brexit and were elected last December have to decide

Those of us who were always against Brexit
get to sit at the side with [popcorn] and

Leave promised conflicting things to different groups, to get them all on board
e.g. look at the "Breaking Point" poster and scare videos, vs targeted ads at Asian minorities promising easier immigration for their relatives

So they had to pretend that after Brexit everyone would continue to enjoy the advantages of the EU, its Single Market and agencies, while not being bound by the rules of the EU like members are

This was a highly effective - although completely dishonest - way to snatch a narrow majority in a referencdum,
but then makes it impossible to achieve a Brexit that satisfies even most Leavers, let alone the country as a whole

e.g.
"easiest trade deal in history"
"we hold all the cards"
" only an idiot would leave the SIngle MArket"
"Why can't we be like Norway"

are promises of an entirely different Brexit to the bare bones post-Brexit deal that is now BJ's best hope

So ertswhile Remainers and pundits on the telly who actually know about trade and agencies are not being "negative" when they can't find a way to achieve the promised sunny uplands of Brexit

OK, Brexit was done on 31 Jan, agreed.
It's the working out the relationship with other countries that's not been done yet. Some might say that should have been done before now.

You could be forgiven for thinking that the future relationships mattered less than leaving.

Icouldhavecheckedfirst Sorry no I can't help with progress on trade talks, that is not my line of work so anything I write would probably just be ill informed conjecture.

Auldalliance I think we'll just have to accept that there are differing view on that. My European relatives were definitely more hung up on the stasis, and really not the actual leaving, as were people in my immediate social and work circles here in the UK. I'm sure there is the full range of responses though.

Toptotoe You wrote that people were "glad to get him [BJ] into power so that the country could move forward".
In what way do you think the country has moved forward since the election?

As far as I can see, all Brexit being done has done is turn the Leave campaign into a permanent part of the media establishment whose sole job is to jump on anything they perceive as being negative about their sacred Brexit. It's become it's own industry.

More effort has been put into selling and defending Brexit that was ever going to be put into the negotiations it now requires.

DGR "More effort has been put into selling and defending Brexit that was ever going to be put into the negotiations it now requires."

Ain't that the truth, and we're all going to suffer as a consequence

Just listening to David Gaulke on R4 and perhaps he was simplifying the narrative to make a better story but he did just admit that the Tory Manifesto was written by someone in Dominic Cummings office. Another brilliant example of democracy? Of no more unelected officials running the country?

Meanwhile, I'm just working on a critical thinking lecture for my students. The debate in the literature is whether this is an independent skill that can be taught and applied to any topic or, actually, is it dependent on deep knowledge (domain knowledge) of a subject matter and, hence, cannot be taught. My conclusion, thanks to these pages, is heading towards the latter.

Just listening to David Gaulke on R4 and perhaps he was simplifying the narrative to make a better story but he did just admit that the Tory Manifesto was written by someone in Dominic Cummings office.

Does it really matter who wrote it ? After all, it's not like any Tory MPs read it.

Just like none of them have apparently read the WA either... 😑

But the point DGR is not that Tories won't have read their own manifesto. We can take as read. It is the fact that Remoaners often are accused of being anti-democratic.

Whilst Brexiteers blithely and conveniently continue to deny or ignore the extremely anti-democratic antics of our current government. This specious reasoning deployed is irritating.

Goodness, loads to respond to!

born no problem, I don’t think I even saw the message I’d gone to bed I do try not to attack people personally but to stick to the argument.

BigChoc was asking about the voters deciding Trident should be sold off. I think it is vanishingly unlikely that the U.K. Govt would hold a referendum on such a question but if it did and “Sell The Missiles” won, then they should be sold. The voters must be in charge, IMO. Not to derail but a slightly more likely scenario....if the price of coalition with the SNP for a future Government was that Trident must be removed from Scotland I’d be worried from a defence POV but I’d have to accept that if such a goverment were formed this would follow.

Scottish unionists off too a (flag) flying start I see.

The voters must be in charge, IMO

Is that an absolute ?

Voters decide that black people should really go back to being slaves ?

Voters decide they don't ever want to vote again ?

Voters decide that anyone not going to church on a sunday gets burned at the stake.

As GBS sagely noted - you have already agreed the transaction. Now we are just arguing over the price.

The sacred vote of The Willy to Leave has already been enacted. How could any true Brexit faithful have missed the Great Day of Glory back in January which was all they desired even if it costs generations of decline?

As The Willy has thus been fulfilled, surely all future direction is now open for discussion - or does it turn out that The Willy is eternal and only those who voted for it in 2016 are allowed to have a voice ever again? That's not very, um, democratic, is it?

Dr. Blackbird Even if the Tory manifesto were written by someone in Dominic Cummings office, it is still perfectly democratic if the electorate then voted for it.

DGRossetti Yes it is an absolute that the voters must be in charge. The situations you list are not situations that the voters have (or ever likely would) vote for. One or two oddballs maybe but the majority, no that's extremely unlikely.

The sacred vote of The Willy to Leave has already been enacted. How could any true Brexit faithful have missed the Great Day of Glory back in January which was all they desired even if it costs generations of decline?

As we are seeing on this thread, the Brexit Faithful really hadn't the first idea what Brexit was.

I'm vaguely reminded of a child who takes a complex toy apart and then wonders why no matter what they do reassembling it, it never works again.

It is a bitter - and will not be forgotten - irony that Remainers were much more aware of what Brexit was than Leavers.

In what way do you think the country has moved forward since the election?
It has certainly moved forward in that we do not just debate whether or not Brexit is a good idea - we accept that for better or worse, it is happening. Businesses were saying they didn't care one way or another, they just needed to know which way it would be so they could plan accordingly. Confidence was being lost in the power of democracy. Trust was lost in parliament. It was in my view a dreadful position for the country to be in, far worse than either being in or out. I don't think I was alone in this view, hence the decisive result of the election.
I'm surprised you ask actually. Do you not think it is better to be moving forward? I can understand many people would prefer to move backwards, but not to stay in the frozen state of no-man's land (accepting there are some like Peregrina who mentions above she is concerned about vital medications).

Yes it is an absolute that the voters must be in charge
Gotta love posters who do not understand the concept of Representative Democracy
Ah well