Westminstenders: No pubs till Christmas?

[RedToothBrush]

Today the news has moved towards acknowledging covid-19 reality: Nicola Sturgeon has explicitly stated that some social distancing will carry on until the new year in all likelihood.

When Matt Hancock asked if this was true for England too, he refused to say yes but he said that Scotland was working from the same framework as England.

In case anyone does still need this spelling out, this means the outlook for the hospitality and leisure industries is bleak.

There are extremely unlikely to be many enjoying a holiday in the sun any time soon, whether it be in Devon or Spain.

We won't be celebrating birthdays in restaurants nor having a pint in the pub.

Conversations on the doorstep from a couple of metres away is as good as it gets.

That means if you can't adapt you may not survive.

To add into the mix changes to customs to those companies who are operating seems insanity. But that's a political not a scientific decision to be made.

Whether reality in this will kick in, in the next six weeks or so before EU budgetary decisions relating to an extension have to be made remains to be seen.

Until then, there is no news but covid-19.

I've seen this draft relaxation circulated for the UK, but not in an official UK gov release:

May 25th is a Bank holiday/whit week, not sure they'd send schools back then.

Tbh I think that draft of lockdown easing might be a bit optimistic. I can’t see all that happening in 6 weeks. And I think schools will reopen in a phased manner, when they do.
I wonder if people will feel happy to go to crowded cinemas etc, that soon?

What I really want to know: when will dentists re-open? Need to go!

I don't know whether reopening cinemas, theatres etc is sensible at all

Crowds indoors for any kind of entertainment may indeed have to wait until we have an effective treatment or vaccine
Restaurants, pubs and cafes might also need to be outdoors and distanced only

Entertainment & leisure businesses will have to adapt to survive
e.g. some shows outside under marquees
gyms letting only 20 at a time in 90 minute slots, no showers, pools or sauna etc

German govt has warned holiday travel unlikely to be allowed this year, maybe not even domestically

The tests are in the post - did they mean "the checks (sic) are in the post"?.

Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn (Sun)

New: Boris Johnson wants Britain to be back at work from Tuesday, May 26.

PM told mayors today his plan is about “managing unlockdown”.

Ministers now think they have a huge job to persuade millions of nervous Brits it will be safe to go back to work.

Cabinet source said: “It’s all well and good government saying, ‘do this now’ if the public don’t want to.
They are as big agents in this as we are”.

Saturday' papers:

The Sun:
Return to work date of 26 May
VERY optimistically looking at resumption of the Premier League.

Guardian & Daily Mirror
look at what we discussed before - the coronavirus "class divide"
and ONS figures showing many more COVID victims from the poorest parts of the country than from the richest.

Daily Telegraph
reports the government has asked experts if relaxing the two metre social distancing guideline is possible,
to allow more businesses to reopen

Times
plan is to have commuters on public transport take their temperatures before setting out for work.

Bcf that's not too dissimilar to the Irish lockdown lifting plan which runs as follows

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Yesterday 16:16pocketem

China continues to open up, with the government sanctioning mass gatherings and opening of tourist attractions on the first day of the May holidays, as long as people wear masks

Yesterday 16:18ToffeeYoghurt

I just posted on another thread about how I've been saying all along, from the end of January, how it would be the poor in cities, London in particular, who would be most affected. They were sitting ducks. The protection was there for the few, not the many. Police turning two or three people away from Cornwall yet hundreds of thousands of people continued to arrive at airports with no checks or quarantine, including daily flights from Wuhan after the crisis there was known. It's worth noting the million plus pensioners in London are more likely to be in poverty than those anywhere else in the UK.

The poor (and the not so poor) in cities like London are crammed into high density bad quality often shared housing. Many thousands of families live in one room with no access to proper cooking facilities. Those reliant on food banks have little opportunity for fresh healthy food. They're forced to go to their (low paid) jobs on crowded public transport. Poverty is a major cause of obesity and ill health - physical and mental.

To make matters worse, the conditions with the highest Covid mortality rates weren't included on the shielding list. These conditions - including type 2 diabetes and hypertension, are often known as diseases of poverty. These people are the most vulnerable of all. Highest risks from Covid yet denied the protection of the shielding list. It's gulling particularly considering it's possible some on the shielding list are actually at lower risk. Immunosuppressants are amongst the trial drugs. It looks like people taking these drugs might have a slightly increased risk of catching Covid but they're more protected against progressing to a serious stage.

the right wing hawks, in particular, seem to have discovered a new concern about the abuse, exclusion and poor conditions that are the reality of many people's home lives - and see involving it as a reason to end lockdown
Yes. I've seen it here. They conveniently ignore the fact it is those very people they suddenly profess such concern about who will suffer (and die) the most if we have a premature end to lockdown. Likewise they ignore or dismiss any alternative solutions to help those struggling in lockdown. Putting abuse victims in the empty hotels and holiday homes (many owners have been given £10,000 by the taxpayer), providing online support for abuse victims and people struggling with mental health, continuing MH home visits (giving PPE to the visiting HCP), ensuring full rent amounts can be met from UC and housing benefit, plans for post pandemic council house building, spreading the economy out of London more evenly across the UK, which would resolve both regional unemployment and the city housing crisis. If they really were concerned that's how to help the poor and vulnerable without killing them off via premature end to lockdown.

Yesterday 18:11TheStarryNight

Telegraph article: Armed US protesters enter Michigan capitol to demand coronavirus lockdown end

By Agence France-Presse
1 MAY 2020 • 6:30AM

Demonstrators, including some carrying guns, entered the capitol building in the US state of Michigan on Thursday and demanded the Democratic governor lift strict coronavirus lockdown orders, as some lawmakers reportedly donned bulletproof vests.

Dozens of demonstrators crowded the lobby of the building in Lansing, where they demanded to be allowed inside the House Chamber.

State police, wearing masks, blocked them from entering. None of the protesters appeared to be wearing masks.

"Directly above me, men with rifles yelling at us," tweeted Senator Dayna Polehanki along with a photo showing four men, at least one of whom appeared to be carrying a weapon.

"Some of my colleagues who own bullet proof vests are wearing them. I have never appreciated our Sergeants-at-Arms more than today," she continued.

More protesters could be seen outside carrying signs, including one depicting Governor Gretchen Whitmer as Adolf Hitler.

The demonstration, dubbed the American Patriot Rally, was organised by a group calling itself Michigan United for Liberty.

"We do not agree with or consent to our unalienable rights being restricted or rescinded for any reason, including the Covid-19 pandemic," the group said on its private Facebook page, where it has more than 8,800 members.

"We believe that every American and every Michigander has the right to work to support our families, to travel freely, to gather for religious worship and for other purposes, to gather in protest of our government and to direct our own medical care."

The protest comes a day after a Michigan court ruled that stay-at-home directives issued by Whitmer on March 24 do not infringe on residents’ constitutional rights, according to local media reports.

It was the second time this month that protesters have demanded Whitmer lift lockdown restrictions in the state, which has seen more than 3,500 people killed by the coronavirus, according to a tally by Johns Hopkins University.

On April 16 around 3,000 protesters, some of them also armed, descended on Lansing for "Operation Gridlock," causing a massive traffic jam around the capital building.

A day later Mr Trump appeared to lend his support to them and scattered protests elsewhere, tweeting "LIBERATE MICHIGAN!"

Whitmer, whose name has emerged as a potential running mate for presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden, shrugged those protests off, telling CNN it was "OK to be angry."

"I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again – Michigan is an extraordinary place to live because of the people who call it home. There are millions of Michiganders doing their part to slow the spread of Covid-19 every single day. We are going to get through this together," she tweeted later Thursday, without commenting directly on the protests.

Despite the demonstrations, Whitmer’s handling of the virus crisis has been met with a generally favorable response.

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Yesterday 19:18Coquohvan

@MurrayTheMonk
I agree with you, it’s a total disgrace.

He knew, they all knew about care homes, the pay for carers the conditions.
I’d go as far to say also that the care homes in private hands knew about the conditions but chose to keep counting their millions. They chose to ignore and carry on with the status quo, private and council run.

I really do hope their is change coming and wish you and your staff all the very best.

Yesterday 19:24MurrayTheMonk

Thankyou Coq-I dont think anything will realistically change after this. We will have years of sodding austerity I would think...
But at least more people recognise that social care has been criminally ignored all this time. I think lots of people didn't even realise what it was and what we do-they just lumped us in mentally with the NHS and assumed we get similar pay and 'perks' (such as they are which is not many). Penny is finally dropping with people that we don't even get that, and the person looking after your Gran is on £2.50 ph less than the person who stacks your shelves in Asda 🤷🏽‍♀️. (Who is also doing a great job, don't get me wrong).

Yesterday 20:12Coquohvan

I do, my MIL was in a care home for going on 3yrs. Privately funded by her.
We got to know a few of her own personal carers very well, knew their wage knew how they were overworked. One nurse in her floor, no night cover only emergencies.
Her carers were fantastic, we would give them gifts for birthdays and cash at Christmas time.
They would go above and beyond for her, she really felt safe with them.
Her care home has had 22 deaths due to Covid19.
You seem like one of them.

Yesterday 20:16EmeraldShamrock

@ToffeeYoghurt I agree it is like ethnic cleansing for certain groups or cultures while culling the elderly.
Survival of the fittest like you mention the poor man illnesses will ensure this too.

Yesterday 20:22Humphriescushion

So many shocking things. I am starting to despair. Murray i really hope fhings change, but fear you maybe right.

Yesterday 20:43MarshaBradyo

Toffee your post is interesting. However do you think London has some benefit from a younger population? Albeit not from a lower multi-ethic one (not homogenous as vast socio economic spread here too).

Yesterday 20:44MarshaBradyo

Also It's worth noting the million plus pensioners in London are more likely to be in poverty than those anywhere else in the UK.

Is this proportionally true? It may well be I’d be interested to see more on it.

Yesterday 21:22HeIenaDove

ASCP launches COVID or Compliance Campaign

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrA33kN5rRA

Yesterday 21:23HeIenaDove

In the next 8 weeks, there'll be 700k regulatory gas safety checks due resulting in up to 2 million unnecessary social interactions

Yesterday 21:33WhoWants2Know

Interestingly, local GP surgeries where I live have taken to Facebook to say that although the peak may have passed for the country as a whole, numbers are still rising locally and that staying home is more important than ever.

Yesterday 21:51Bercows

My gas check is due this month. They've usually contacted me by now. I won't be letting anyone into the house. Two of them cone and it takes about half an hour. I've been in my nice clean bubble for 7 weeks and feel safe. No one is going to threaten that.

Yesterday 22:16RedToothBrush

Keeping in mind there are efforts for an all Ireland covid-19 policy, the Irish timetable for reopening is interesting.

Outdoor work, such as construction - May 18
Retailers like garden centres and hardware stores - May 18.
Outdoor meetings in groups of four people - May 18.

Small retailers with social - June 8
Work with low levels of interaction - June 8

Restaurants where social distancing possible - June 29.

Hotels, minus hotel bars - July 20.

Pubs and nightclubs - Aug 10
Full return to work - Aug 10
Tourist travel to offshore islands - Aug 10

Schools and universities - September

Sorry try again without the crap c and p job

BCF that's not too dissimilar to the Irish timetable which as follows:

Outdoor work, such as construction - May 18
Retailers like garden centres and hardware stores - May 18.
Outdoor meetings in groups of four people - May 18.

Small retailers with social - June 8
Work with low levels of interaction - June 8

Restaurants where social distancing possible - June 29.

Hotels, minus hotel bars - July 20.

Pubs and nightclubs - Aug 10
Full return to work - Aug 10
Tourist travel to offshore islands - Aug 10

Schools and universities - September

Schools is major difference but to do with could be more to do with Irish holidays being different.

Either way given that there is supposed to be some coordination between Ireland and Northern Ireland (which is supported by Arlene Foster - though she's said NI could have a different timescale to England!!!) you'd expect the UK government plan to not be a million miles off the Irish government plan.

Which does make me think that your dates aren't wide of the mark.

Tbh I think we are getting to the point we don't have much of a choice. One of DHs friends has been voicing suicidal thoughts given the state of his financial issues and he's far from the only person we know in dire straits. (self employed business has totally disappeared trying to keep overheads down etc etc).

I don't like it and on a personal level I'd prefer lockdown to continue a little longer especially the leisure side, but I think indirect threats to health from lockdown are now becoming a more pressing concern than is being acknowledged. They are being framed as economic primarily but I think its more than that - mental health and people avoiding hospital/ doctors for other issues.

I would agree Red - even the most accepting of people are now getting fed up with it, and beginning to think that they will take their chances.

Maybe I should start making some face masks, just in case.

truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/nhs-ordered-to-hand-over-security-keys-of-nhs-data-to-gchq/

NHS ordered to hand over security keys of NHS data to GCHQ - TruePublica
Mark Otto, Jacob Thornton, and Bootstrap contributors
7-8 minutes

NHS ordered to hand over security keys of NHS data to GCHQ

By Rob Woodward – TruePublica: Britain’s NHS has become the latest target for big tech to stick its money funnel into and harvest our most personal and private data. It was bad enough that the state illegally and secretly stole our privacy, captured our secrets, recorded our conversations, filmed our private moments, took images of our children and invited in the biggest crooks on the planet to exploit the swag. But now, there’s a plan to capitalise, abuse, manipulate and profit from our physical and mental vulnerabilities.

Google and Amazon already have their tentacles shoved deeply into NHS patient databases and there’s a queue from America’s silicone Valley banging on the door. This week, we’ve found out that another shady company is to exploit the COVID-19 pandemic when we’re all looking the other way. This time, the links are with our own government, with Dominic Cummings, with his pals who just a few years ago were scratching their backsides in Uni but now are ‘data scientists’ at the heart of decision making over our lives.

Anonymised data for research purposes is one thing but the commercial exploitation of health data is another. And it demonstrates what this government is up to right now. They are preparing the NHS for a post-Brexit world irrespective of the wishes of the general public who are unanimous that the NHS should remain a fully-funded public institution without commercial interference.

Not satisfied with the work they have done already to destroy what is left of our most private information, or concerned with the damage that these tech companies will do – the government are equally indifferent to others whose intentions are just as nefarious.

The NHS has now been ordered to hand over its most secure information from its IT systems to the UK’s intelligence and security authority during the covid-19 pandemic after the agency was granted extra powers by Matt Hancock – the Health Service Journal has just revealed.
SafeSubcribe/Instant Unsubscribe - One Email, Every Sunday Morning - So You Miss Nothing - That's It

Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ), the same authority that lost court cases over its illegal mass hacking programmes and data collection regimes – now has the power to simply take any information which relates to “the security” of the health service’s networks and information systems.

The move, authorised by Mr Hancock earlier this month, appears from the outside to be an attempt to strengthen the NHS’ cyber defences amid warnings from GCHQ of a growing trend in covid-19 themed cyber attacks.

According to a government document published last week, the purpose of the new directions is to support and maintain the security of any network and information system which is held by — or on behalf of — the NHS, including systems that support NHS services intended to address coronavirus.
What this does is grant GCHQ unprecedented powers it did not have previously, under the Computer Misuse Act 1990

Apparently, the same directions also apply to all public health bodies. That means that the state now has access to every piece of information ever generated by any public body in Britain and the security systems that keep that data safe.

What this does is grant GCHQ unprecedented powers it did not have previously, under the Computer Misuse Act 1990. The COVID-19 crisis was used by the government as an opportunistic attack on Britain’s democracy which it attempted to grab for a minimum of two years. In so doing, it has already changed the information security landscape irrevocably.

Access to this data now gives the state extraordinary power over all of our lives. This is the last battleground of information access and they’ve used a crisis to accomplish it.

A spokesman for the National Cyber Security Centre, which is part of GCHQ, said the directions were part of “our ongoing commitment to protect health services during the coronavirus pandemic.

“These directions give us consent to check the security of NHS IT systems,” he added.

The unnamed spokesman was quick to point out that they “do not seek to authorise” GCHQ to receive patient data, and he added: “We have no desire to receive any patient data.”

It is not good enough to state that these so-called directions will only apply until the end of 2020. They have access to their security systems.

Meanwhile, GCHQ has been advising NHSX (a new unit designed to transform digital health) on the creation of its new contact tracing app that privacy group medConfidential has stated is a clear opportunity for abuse of anonymised data.

Health Secretary Matt Hancock said in the April 12 coronavirus press briefing that the app would enable people to anonymously share their data, but according to The Guardian, a government document labelled “draft – not yet approved” suggests they have considered identifying users.

The March memo detailed how the app could work using Bluetooth to trace people’s movements and alert them if they may have come into contact with someone reporting symptoms.

However, the memo also suggested that “more controversially” the app could use device IDs to “to enable de-anonymisation if ministers judge that to be proportionate at some stage.”

The state has now become a 360-degree total access surveillance system over our entire lives. It has always been sold to the public under the guise of national security but have lost court case after court case for their illegal activities and abuses unconnected with our general wellbeing.

Who will be the highest bidder of all this data? The list is endless but it begins with health insurance companies, private hospitals and outsourced healthcare services. Britain’s prized health service is heading into 2021 facing an entirely new crisis, one that almost no-one thinks will ever happen. NHS data is valuable simply because it is not corrupted by the tension strings of private interests. Last July, Ernst and Young estimated that data held by the NHS could be worth nearly £10bn a year. The fact that E&Y, a company that has hugely profited from privatisation calculated this in the first place, is itself a cause for concern.
At a time when reporting the truth is critical, your support is essential in protecting it.

However, the memo also suggested that “more controversially” the app could use device IDs to “to enable de-anonymisation if ministers judge that to be proportionate at some stage.”

I was coming to ask about the UK long term plan but the above article I think may be part of the answer.

Gov says phase I is ending and deaths are gradually falling. But yesterday at the press briefing it was mentioned that the Nightingales were for intubated patients and were barely needed as the peak flattened. We know they also struggled to find staff for them.

If Covid is not going to disappear the gov needs a way to manage Covid demand on NHS services alongside the 'normal' demand which was often at capacity and now has a backlog of cancer treatment, surgery etc not carried out over the lockdown. We haven't increased long term capacity as the Nightingales are unstaffed so how is this going to be done? Hospitals need their operating theatres back so where is the expanded ICU going to be?

I had the question but perhaps the aim is to get cases down - but they are going down v slowly - and then track movements of anyone diagnosed and get those people to self isolate for 14 days just in case. An individualised lockdown. Tough for employers who may suddenly find a shop or call centre shut down for 14 days while their competitors continue but better for the economy than a national lockdown.

It does sound very Big Brother (Orwell not Davina!) though.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/02/uk-seeks-access-to-eu-health-cooperation-in-light-of-coronavirus

"The UK is seeking “something akin to membership” of the EU’s early warning and response system (EWRS)"

Not quite sure how it will work. I have a collection of smartphones. The temptation to put this "app" on a spare one and leave it in the kitchen is great.

The idea I have any confidence on putting any software from this bunch of incompetent clowns anywhere near my real data is laughable.

There are quite a few apps that fake GPS, just to prank Google. I might (re) investigate a few.

“something akin to membership”

Wonder if I could pull that shit with Netflix ? "Hi there. I know I don't pay you anything, but I wonder if I could arrange something akin to membership ?"

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/02/uk-seeks-access-to-eu-health-cooperation-in-light-of-coronavirus

The British government is quietly seeking access to the European Union’s pandemic warning system, despite early reluctance to cooperate on health after Brexit, the Guardian has learned.

The UK is seeking “something akin to membership” of the EU’s early warning and response system (EWRS), which has played a critical role in coordinating Europe’s response to the coronavirus, as well as to earlier pandemics such as bird flu. According to an EU source, this would be “pretty much the same” as membership of the system.

Incidentally, isn't the testing kit counting just a cover version of how Hancock was counting nurses that hadn't left the NHS as "new recruits" before the election ?

I am wondering how they plan to enforce use of this app. Just a sniff that the data could be sold would have me running for the hills - then there is the fact that not everyone has smartphone.

Last time I checked, the Government couldn't compel you to carry a tracking device without a strong reason: parole tags,for example, are court ordered.

The temptation to put this "app" on a spare one and leave it in the kitchen is great.

My thoughts too.

"The UK is seeking “something akin to membership” of the EU’s early warning and response system (EWRS)"

Instead of telling the UK to do one, the best response would be "Of course, the cost is £[eyewatering sum]."

Assuming it relies on people reporting symptoms, I can't see it working unless it's also accompanied by major testing.

Many families have taken a huge financial hit already and even when going back to work finances may still be precarious. There will be a significant few for whom two weeks on statutory sick pay will be a major problem and perhaps make them reluctant to report symptoms.

Or pressure from bosses - no-one wants to be responsible for shutting down the whole work place.

I have tickets to go and see ELO in October with dh, ds, SIL and my best friend and her dh, who are coming up from Wales.

It's in the Hydro which is an enormous venue with a capacity of c14,000

I'm resigned to the fact that it won't be able to go ahead

Re Bluetooth, I have it switched off most of the time on my phone as I don't currently have any devices that I pair it with

Taiwan uses GPS to track people:

1. Legislation allows the authorities to track everyone via their mobile.
   There is no need for an App, your phone number is sufficient.
   GPS is accurate to with a few feet so it is a good way of having a reasonably accurate record of movements.

2. If you don’t have a mobile you will be given one.

3. If you are in quarantine your mobile must be on, and on your person, except for when charging.

4. If you leave it on a table the authorities have software that kows this !
   You will get a visit from the police in case you went out and deliberately left the phone at home.

5. You will routinely get phone calls from the town hall to check you are in and are OK.
   That acts as the first check on whether you have gone out.

Apparently they need 80% of people to download the tracker app. I know lots of people will, but I won’t be one of them since they’ve opted for the centralised system. Cummings is not getting my data, because I know he’s not going to use it for anything I’d approve of. Also, you have to keep the app open and Bluetooth on the whole time. I don’t even use Bluetooth to connect to the car on the school run because the battery drain is so huge (and I forget to turn it off afterwards).

I think Scandi countries also have a national TB vaccination program? Which there has been suggestion seems to help the body battle the virus

We may hopefully be able to get schools and up to 90% of the economy running over the summer months

However, unless COVID is v seasonal and just shuts down over summer, < 🤞>

then imo indoor entertainment of large groups, especially where people are eating & drinking and hence not masked - pubs, clubs, cinemas etc -

would have too high a risk of restarting exponential infection growth
... and a 2nd lockdown

The same goes for planes and cruises