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Brexit

Westministenders: Crisis, which crisis ?

982 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 29/02/2020 18:25

Main crises facing the government:

. Negotiating a Brexit deal with the EU
. Coronoavirus
. Floods
. Allegations of some ministers - and Cummings - bullying civil servants
. More trouble threatened from Turkey / Syria

Unfortunately with all these parallel crises, we have a workshy lying arse as PM
and the worst collection yet of incompetents in Cabinet
who seem to have decided on a strategy of bullying their civil servants to avoid hearing any facts that don't fit with current Tory party ideology

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Thread gallery
24
BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2020 09:00

Dmitry Grozoubinski@DmitryOpines

Can the defense of Priti Patel please not be, "actually, workplace verbal abuse is just good management?"

Say you doubt the allegations, say they're exaggerated, say it's a stitch up, or even say you don't care.
You have options.

Don't pick the worst one. Please.

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borntobequiet · 03/03/2020 09:07

Farming Today on US/UK free trade agreement re agriculture

Govt document "one big loophole"
"184 pages...a bit like writing your wish list for Father Christmas"

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000fwdp

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2020 09:13

"She does like the sound of her own voice"

How dare an intelligent woman express opionions
Of course she deserves to be blocked from a job Hmm

Fortunately, the British Museum found a way around govt approval to appoint her after all

The current Tory govt want to stamp out any opposing views and are using exclusion and bullying (civil service) to do so
The Tory party didn't use to be this way

The continual defence in this thread of this action illustrates that many ordinary Tories support the govt in their attempts to exclude people who disagree with the govt

If Labour had been elected, would you support them blocking anyone who supported Tory views from becoming Museum trustees ? I wouldn't.

Would you agree that Labour would be entitled to ban you for your views ?

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BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2020 09:15

Dmitry Grozoubinski@DmitryOpines

Strongly suspect those in the comments who feel being democratically elected should mean Ministers aren't constrained by norms, institutions, judicial review, media scrutiny, or basic human decency,
might have a different view if Jeremy Corbyn were Prime Minister right now.

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Clavinova · 03/03/2020 09:24

Mistigri
So much for free speech huh

Indeed - July 2016 Newnham College Cambridge;
"Five of Britain’s leading thinkers to comment on Brexit:"

Onora O’Neill, Baroness O’Neill of Bengarve, former Principal of Newnham and an Honorary Fellow, Classicist Professor Mary Beard, Newnham alumna and Fellow, historian Peter Hennessy, philosopher Roger Scruton, and political philosopher John Gray.

www.newn.cam.ac.uk/alumnae-news/five-britains-leading-thinkers-comment-brexit-women-newnhamites/

"Should Number 10 have blocked Mary Beard’s appointment by the British Museum because of her anti-Brexit views?"

"To someone who hasn’t developed the Politics Brain virus—the obsession with turning everything into an issue of Who’s Side Are You On—obviously not. She’s probably Britain’s best-known classicist and a well-loved public figure and author."

"Yet because I’ve suffered from Politics Brain myself...I can see the logic, at least."

"For several decades most major British institutions have undergone what’s known as Conquest’s Second Law, the rule that “any organisation not explicitly Right-wing will become Left-wing”.There are a number of reasons for this.One is that disagreement is not natural to us and so institutions lean towards one worldview and at any time and place that will tend to be society’s prestige belief system—which today is Left-liberal."

"Another is “social homophily”, that is wanting to be around people like you, or “the right fit” as people talk about in employment."

"This, inevitably, also leads to discrimination, and there is plenty of evidence of it against conservatives, although conservatives are just as bad when it comes to discriminating against their opponents."

"Unfortunately we’re in less of a position to do that since most prestige institutions are now broadly progressive, something that has accelerated since 1997 when Labour began filling all the leading institutions with supporters."

"In contrast the Conservatives, during their ten years in Downing St, have appointed one conservative to a leading position, Roger Scruton, who they promptly sacked over a hatchet job by the New Statesman."

"All of which makes me rather cynical about the howls of outrage over the Mary Beard move. If she was someone with Roger Scruton’s opinions on Europe, or more so immigration and multiculturalism, would they object to a Labour government blocking his appointment by a major body?"

"Well, of course, a Labour government wouldn’t need to, because no major body would appoint someone with Scruton’s views in the first place. How many leading figures at the British Museum are Leave-voting Tories, and would feel comfortable with appointing one to a leading position? I don’t know, but I’m guessing somewhere in the region of [B**r] All." ...

unherd.com/thepost/mary-beard-is-the-exception-that-proves-the-rule/

Not that I agree with Roger Scruton's views.

Peregrina · 03/03/2020 09:35

might have a different view if Jeremy Corbyn were Prime Minister right now.

Quite, and although they are riding high at the moment, perhaps ought to reflect that things might change.

Clavinova · 03/03/2020 09:39

Remind me not to apply for a job in work and pensions (Priti Patel's previous position and latest source of bullying accusations) - Labour's shadow work and pensions secretary, Debbie Abrahams, was sacked for workplace bullying in 2018;

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/08/debbie-abrahams-loses-labour-frontbench-role-amid-bullying-claims

Clavinova · 03/03/2020 09:53

Although in fact, Mary Beard has some sympathy with Priti Patel and others accused of bullying;

"What is a bully?" ...

"I cannot see a useful definition of bullying which includes robust criticism (in an academic seminar, for example) or the occasional flying off the handle; everyone does that. “Bullying” comes in when “flying off the handle” is the only critical mode you have; if it is a systematic response, and you don’t come back and say sorry."

"I compare the need to push students hard on their essays.It sometimes is the best and kindest thing you could do to be very tough on someone’s piece of work. It isn’t the best and kindest thing if you do that every week and have no other register or comment or interaction with them. No one thrives if they are told they are useless every single week.They often do thrive with some uncomfortably frank criticism, once in a while. I certainly recall feeling uncomfortable at some of the criticism I got as a student, but I never felt “got at”, “picked on” or “terrorised” – and I was extremely grateful for it, even if the gratitude did come a little later." ...

"Looking through all this stuff in the papers this weekend, and delving a bit randomly into HR department guidelines on the web, I began to suspect that we should be thinking as much about culture as individuals. My bet is that, in some of these cases, we are dealing with an office or department that has embedded bullying, has somehow narrowed working relationships to a very unnuanced spectrum, and policed them by systems of appraisal, complaint and discipline. Important as those systems are, it is a culture that has diminished the human interactions possible within it.That is not to let the bully off the hook (however we define him or her), but to suggest that the problem is wider that the individual."

www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/what-is-a-bully/

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2020 10:16

ÔK, so Mary Beard is fine to express an opinion when you think it supports the Tories

However, she is talking about ordinary pushing of someone to study or do a job
This must be within the law

Not swearing, lying and continual bullying that would cause a court to award compensation for unfair dismissal

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BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2020 10:19

Let's hope Patel is also sacked for workplace bullying

Unfortunate, in the Tory party that is regarded as something to be praised

Even if her ex-civil servant is awarded compensation by the court, she would just be moved sideways,
or at most be dropped temporarily and brought back quickly, like last time

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Peregrina · 03/03/2020 10:24

The BBC in its Newspaper headlines page quotes:

The Telegraph says Tory MPs are demanding to know why Downing Street has "abandoned" Priti Patel to fight her battles with the Home Office, while Rachel Sylvester, writing in the Times, says "institutional failings" are "no excuse for bad behaviour".

Because that is what Johnson does. He lets someone else take the rap. Good old lovable Boris.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2020 10:25

Patel must be in trouble judging by the frantic defence of her on these threads

Her bullying has already cost the taxpayer money for compensation and is likely to cost more
What an example to set of how to behave

She is a nightmare boss and also incompetent at her job - the former may be an attempted cover for the latter

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/02/cabinet-office-to-investigate-priti-patel-bullying-claims

Priti Patel has come under increased pressure to resign as home secretary as another bullying allegation emerged just hours after the Cabinet Office launched a formal inquiry into claims she had mistreated her permanent secretary.

In claims reported by the BBC,
the embattled minister was accused of shouting at a former aide with “unprovoked aggression” before removing her from her job.

The aide received a £25,000 government payout after a threatened lawsuit in which Patel was named,
the report said, adding that Patel was accused of shouting at the aide to “get lost” and “get out of her face”.

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Peregrina · 03/03/2020 10:43

I certainly recall feeling uncomfortable at some of the criticism I got as a student, but I never felt “got at”, “picked on” or “terrorised” – and I was extremely grateful for it, even if the gratitude did come a little later." ...

Yes, it's one thing to be told; "Look, you haven't done enough work on this, your arguments don't stand up, this won't get you a pass..." which while it smarts at the time, deep down you know it to be true.

It's quite another for someone to say " You'r a F useless waste of space. "

I hope it does come out; such behaviour is unacceptable whichever party is in power.

Clavinova · 03/03/2020 11:40

BigChocFrenzy

I haven't said that I support workplace bullying - in fact quite the opposite. We shall have to see what comes out in the next few months.

"swearing, lying and continual bullying that would cause a court to award compensation for unfair dismissal" - no evidence of "swearing, lying and continual bullying" by Priti Patel in that particular case - one exchange is quoted which doesn't involve swearing.

The Guardian also says;

"Her [former aide's] grievance letter alleges she had previously attempted to kill herself after reporting allegations of workplace bullying in 2014, before Patel was a minister."

A line manager and colleague are also implicated - there is no suggestion that these individuals are Conservative Party supporters - just civil servants.

In the Mary Beard link she also says;

"the occasional flying off the handle; everyone does that. “Bullying” comes in when “flying off the handle” is the only critical mode you have; if it is a systematic response, and you don’t come back and say sorry."

Not to be outdone, Labour Party Corbynistas have joined in;

Keir Starmer ... accused of standing by while “right-wing” members in his local constituency party subjected Corbynistas to “hostility and abuse”.

The “chronic factionalism” has now spilled out into the open, with 31 members of his Holborn and St Pancras branch writing to Labour’s general secretary Jennie Formby to demand she intervene.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/02/29/keir-starmer-dragged-bullying-row-labour-members-allies-accuse/

RedToothBrush · 03/03/2020 11:45

Mark Carney talking about a coronavirus economic shock.

And the budget is being redrawn to focus on the effect of the virus.

This is a useful distraction at just the right time.

Peregrina · 03/03/2020 11:50

Most definitely a useful distraction, as will be banning public meetings....

BTW Clavinova - not liking the Tories does not make us Corbynistas - many of us are extremely glad that he's going.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2020 13:06

“Bullying” comes in when “flying off the handle” is the only critical mode you have; if it is a systematic response, and you don’t come back and say sorry."

That sums up Patel
She is a bully as her standard mode
Working for a bully is horrible; every day full of stress and fear

I'm far more concerned about bullies who actually run the country and have millions of people at their mercy,
than internal squabbles of Labour who can only hurt each other

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BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2020 13:08

The taxpayer has already had to pay off one civil servant to stop a case against Patel coming to trial

The govt would never have approved such a payment unless Patel's conduct was so bad they thought they'd lose

Now a top civil servant is able to have his day in court, because he retired when he quit, no more career to worry about

He is expected to win his case
so the taxpayer will have to shell out even more because of Patel's bullying

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BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2020 13:13

Labour's squabbles in local branches don't matter nearly as much as bullying by the Home Secretary

and the taxpayer has to keep paying compensation for this bullying by Tories
imo, it should come out of party funds instead, because Patel was already known to be a bully

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Grinchlywords · 03/03/2020 13:14

Most unfortunate that the predicted peak of coronavirus according to the CMO in May or June, just as the Brexit negotiations reach crunch point...

ListeningQuietly · 03/03/2020 13:16

Covid19 is an excellent excuse to destroy civil liberties

Will we get them back when the weather warms up?

DGRossetti · 03/03/2020 13:18

Most unfortunate that the predicted peak of coronavirus according to the CMO in May or June, just as the Brexit negotiations reach crunch point...

I can easily imagine the EU postponing negotiations. After all, they haven't any deadline - no skin off their nose(s).

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2020 13:32

"I can easily imagine the EU postponing negotiations. After all, they haven't any deadline - no skin off their nose(s)"

The EU want a deal, probably far more than the UK govt do, since the EU Commission are neither nihilists nor ignorant fools

No Deal will hurt both sides, even thought the Uk economy will suffer far more

The EU already has a failed nuclear state on its Easter borders;
it doesn't want another to the West

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Peregrina · 03/03/2020 13:44

Now a top civil servant is able to have his day in court, because he retired when he quit, no more career to worry about.

This is the key - he refused to be bought off - he wants to see the issues aired in public. He must be reasonably thick skinned to have got as far as he did, so he can't be accused of being a 'snowflake'. He knows that the Tory Government apologist will do their damnedest to trash his reputation but he must think that the risk was worth taking.

If Patel had any sense she would quit now, perhaps feigning a convenient illness.

DGRossetti · 03/03/2020 14:16

Now a top civil servant is able to have his day in court, because he retired when he quit, no more career to worry about.

Unless the law gets changed first.

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