Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: No Australia Don't Have A Deal

981 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/02/2020 16:47

Since Friday, far from letting things calm down, Johnson has doubled down stating that if we can't have a Canada Deal (which the EU says wouldn't be equal because we are much closer than Canada geographically) we will go for an Australia Deal.

This is the latest rehash of a managed no deal package up as something else which the EU have already repeatedly said no to.

So we are on track for no deal.

At the same time Johnson has got very excited about American food and how its great. Almost as if he wants no deal wit the EU to force a shitty bad deal with the us through.

Johnson and his chronies have also been trying to undermine journalistic transparency by blocking access to the lobby to some media outlets in a move that makes us look like a tinpot dictatorship. Fortunately there was a mass walk out of journalists but it remains to be seen how long that can be maintained.

Far from being a clean slate to move forward from its already proving that nothing has changed and old divisions are as deep as ever, if not worse...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
DrBlackbird · 05/02/2020 00:32

The Brexiteers I know, who are all men (no offence to you DGR and yes there are many female Brexiteers that imbibe in the other place) seem to think Brexit IS done because, you know, we've left now so that's that.

They never really bothered to know the full trade implications of leaving or implications for NI and are not in jobs directly related to trade or science or education. As they consume their news from the Torygraph, I suspect that they'll never know, or care even if they did know, about the continued economic uncertainty, the highly disturbing adoption of US tactics re press relations, or the pseudo tough man tactics of a PM who actually couldn't give a toss about the country.

I just don't believe Brexiteers will EVER say it was a mistake...ever. Not even if we run out of food and petrol. And agree that BJ's plan all along has been a no deal. That's where the big money is to be made.

Torchlightt · 05/02/2020 00:51

So a big advertising campaign in Scotland, running for a year from February, to persuade the Scots that we're better off staying in the UK. And leading straight into No Deal? How's that going to work?

Torchlightt · 05/02/2020 00:53

On the basis that within the EU it would be too difficult to trade with England?

tobee · 05/02/2020 00:59

Pmk

BigChocFrenzy · 05/02/2020 01:56

Prominant Brexiter Tory MP Daniel Kawczynski has attended an international far right event

(He's one of the Tory MPs who tried to persuade EU govts to veto A50 extensions and hence force No Deal)

The Board of Deputies of British Jews, among others, called on the Tories to discipline him:

“If the Conservative party fails to discipline Mr Kawczynski, it runs the serious risk of the public assuming that they share his views on association with such people.”

Margaret Hodge (Jewish Labour Movement):
“No member of parliament should be attending a conference packed full of racists, homophobes and Islamophobes,”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/04/tories-daniel-kawczynski-mp-spoke-far-right-event

He claimed Orbán (Hungary) and Salvini (Italy) represented ‘serious ideas and concerns"

He's hardly a reliable source:
He was the ignoramus who claimed last year that the UK didn't receive any Marshall AId 🤦🏻‍♀️

I've posted before how the UK received MORE Marshall AId after WW2 than any other country ....
but wasted it all on trying to hold onto the Empire

Daniel Kawczynski@DKShrewsbury (in 2019)

Britain helped to liberate half of Europe. She mortgaged herself up to eye balls in process.
No Marshall Plan for us only for Germany.
< LIE >

Peregrina · 05/02/2020 02:04

So a big advertising campaign in Scotland............... And leading straight into No Deal? How's that going to work?

If Johnson continues in his cackhanded fashion - extremely badly, I would think.

lonelyplanetmum · 05/02/2020 04:35

In my usual waking up too early I read this on the economic impact of the coronavirus.

the economist on China and coronavirus

I can't help but consider the economic impact of an outbreak here. How different it would be with and without the support and insurance of EU membership.

mathanxiety · 05/02/2020 05:54

More commentary on this Saturday's election in Ireland:

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/04/ireland-election-sinn-fein-takes-poll-lead-five-days-before-vote
...Sinn Féin did not anticipate its surge. Chastened by losses in local and European elections last year it braced to lose some of its 23 seats in the 159-member Dáil assembly and fielded just 42 candidates, about half that of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.

This means an election surge will not fully translate into seats despite Ireland’s system of proportional representation. Fianna Fáil remains the bookies’ favourite to be the largest party and to lead the next government.

Northern Ireland has barely registered in the campaign but Sinn Féin has repeated its call for a unity referendum on both sides of the border by 2025.

The prospect of a Sinn Féin breakthrough south of the border – just weeks after it returned to power-sharing at Stormont – has jolted Northern Ireland unionists, said Duncan Morrow, a politics lecturer at Ulster University. “Unionists are rapidly trying to work out out what this could mean.”

In a surprise development Michelle O’Neill, Sinn Féin’s deputy leader and Northern Ireland’s deputy first minister, attended a Police Service of Northern Ireland recruitment event despite the party’s fractious relationship with policing. “I think it’s seismic and historic,” said the chief constable, Simon Byrne.

You know things have taken a turn for the unprecedented when even my 86 yo staunchly Fianna Fail voting mother is considering giving SF a 4th preference. Proportional representation means lots of tactical voting and some very complex considerations when filling out a ballot paper.

Mistigri · 05/02/2020 07:21

From the always interesting Peter Foster on twitter, on the ban of the phrase "implementation period":

Thinking positively, I wonder if the new use of “transition period” by Boris Johnson frees up the word “implementation” for the coming transition period that dare not speak its name.

ContinuityError · 05/02/2020 07:30

Part 2 of the Foster Tweet:

#brexit has always been full of prima facie ludicrous timetables - the latest being that even if we do deal by Nov 2020 there is no way biz can absorb & implement new processes by Jan 1 2021. Will need to be some kind of taper.

ContinuityError · 05/02/2020 07:46

Plus, on the ban of the phrase "implementation period" - it’s enshrined in law in the EU Withdrawal Act of Parliament?

Westministenders: No Australia Don't Have A Deal
cologne4711 · 05/02/2020 08:11

the ban of the phrase "implementation period"

When I am writing articles that mention it, I use transition instead. Didn't realise it had been banned, but transition is easier (and more accurate) anyway. We're not "implementing" anything this year, well I guess we're not really transitioning either, but I suppose half in and half out is a transition.

cologne4711 · 05/02/2020 08:12

I also always change impact used as a verb to affect.

Although in the context of Brexit, impact is probably better!

lonelyplanetmum · 05/02/2020 08:52

Don't know whose responsible for this... it's very effective.

In some ways I don't approve of using a child's sadness and hurt. But the lies from the bus to getting it done have been so huge -that perhaps this approach which addresses the feelz not the facts is justified.

Westministenders: No Australia Don't Have A Deal
lonelyplanetmum · 05/02/2020 08:58

It's a bit horse stable door bolted anyway.

Jason118 · 05/02/2020 08:58

A bit late now though..... Sad

Peregrina · 05/02/2020 09:01

Northern Ireland has barely registered in the campaign but Sinn Féin has repeated its call for a unity referendum on both sides of the border by 2025.

Now that Johnson has thrown the DUP under the bus, but more or less left NI in the CU and SM, I could see reunification happening almost by default, i.e. people think that it's more or less the status quo, so let's get the job done properly. Demographics are also against the DUP.

Then I stray into Leaver territory about if, and maybe and hopes, but who would then say that Ireland wouldn't join Schengen - they would no longer have Britain to hold them back as before. Who would say the Common Travel Area would last? Why bother?

prettybird · 05/02/2020 09:17

Hilarious video from the Man Next Door, ridiculing Priti Patel who kept on going on about " counter terrorism offenders" and how she was putting in measures to deal with them Confused

https://www.facebook.com/100000405926140/posts/2919739361382899/?d=n

Funkycats · 05/02/2020 09:27

Prettybird 🙈 She really is gathering form, isn't she?
Thanks for thread and sane discussion as always.

TheElementsOdeToJoy · 05/02/2020 09:42

seem to think Brexit IS done

As we've been predicting on this thread for yonks with our Remainer crystal balls, Leavers have carried on with their wave-particle duality all-the-tenses-are-belong-to-us dreamscape: Brexit is simultaneously ALL DONE (cf "look, planes still flying, food still available, whaddaya mean transition period, therefore Project Fear!") and NOT DONE (cf "you can't expect your Sunlit Unicorn because it's only been 3 days and dontcha know it's the transition period therefore we're not truly free yet!")...
and WAS YET TO BE and WILL HAVE BEEN DONE AGES AGO (whenever there are negative consequences like job losses or businesses moving, anything before Jan 31st 2020 was not due to Brexit because it hadn't happened yet, anything after Jan 31st 2020 must be due to non-Brexit factors because the Thing happened on only one day).

malylis · 05/02/2020 09:45

I think there is someone posting exactly that on every brexit thread at the moment.

TheElementsOdeToJoy · 05/02/2020 10:02

Don't mention the frotteur or he might reappear on here and rub his crotch on us 🤢

DGRossetti · 05/02/2020 10:05

amp.ft.com/content/de2a1e52-4677-11ea-aee2-9ddbdc86190d

Boris Johnson has an autonomy fetish. The UK prime minister’s fetish is the belief that his country not only has the sovereign right to shoot itself in both feet,

but also has a duty to do so if the alternative is to allow EU institutions any role in its affairs. Brexit, he insists, means autonomy. If he persists with this demand,

it is likely that, early next year, the UK will suffer the complete rupture of trading relationships it has built up over 47 years.

Yesterday, the British government presented its demands for these negotiations. Unfortunately, they are unrealistic in three respects: the first is the hope that

any agreement will be between “sovereign equals”; the second is the belief that the EU would agree a Canada-style agreement; and the third is that an

Australian relationship with the EU, governed by World Trade Organization rules, is a reasonable alternative.

As a matter of international law, the UK is sovereign. But sovereignty is not the same thing as power. The EU has 446m people, against the UK’s 66m.

Its economy is almost six times as big as the UK’s. The EU is also much less dependent on trade with the UK than is true the other way round.

Let us be clear: this is not a relationship between equals.

The difficulty for the UK in its relationship with the EU is rather that it is too small to be an equal and too big not to matter. It is almost as important a

trading partner of the EU as the US. That is because distance is crucial in determining bilateral trade flows. Since the UK is a far more important trading

partner of the EU than Canada, the bloc is also more wary of Britain’s capacity to disrupt its economy. At the same time, for Australia, trade with the EU

is negligible. But the EU is the UK’s most important trading partner. The UK must not accept the same trade relationship with the EU as Australia’s.

140d635a-476b-11ea-aeb3-955839e06441?sou

The EU’s characteristically thorough mandate for the talks makes clear how it sees the negotiations. First, Brussels sees the “new partnership” as a “single package”.

This is to cover “general arrangements” including the provisions on governance; “economic arrangements including trade and level playing field guarantees” (my emphasis);

and security arrangements including law enforcement and judicial co-operation, foreign policy, security and defence.

Second, the issues are many and complex. These include data protection, participation in EU and Euratom nuclear programmes, trade in goods and services, intellectual property,

public procurement, mobility of people, aviation, road transport, energy, fisheries, judicial co-operation, foreign policy co-operation and cyber security.

It beggars belief that all this can be agreed and ratified within a year. The idea that the UK should walk away if all this cannot be agreed in that brief time seems insane.

Finally, the EU states that “given the . . . UK’s geographic proximity and economic interdependence, the envisaged partnership must ensure open and fair competition . . . To that end,

the envisaged agreement should uphold the common high standards in the areas of state aid, competition, state-owned enterprises, social and employment standards, environmental

standards, climate change, and relevant tax matters.” What the EU is saying here is that your autonomy stops where it inconveniences us. If the UK insists upon it, then the deal it

seeks may not be agreed.

To the reasonable conclusion that no deal is likely, three replies are possible.

The first is that the EU will give in. That is quite unlikely. For the EU to back down on the issue of the “level playing field”, to take one example, would require it to trust the UK not to

compete by undermining the EU’s standards. But what else — the EU will ask — is all this freedom for? What else have Brexiters been saying it is for? You are asking us to trust you,

Mr Johnson. Why should we?

17d577b6-476b-11ea-aeb3-955839e06441?sou

A second response is that it does not matter to the UK if no deal is reached. But it does. Even if the failure were “only” on the trade aspects of the negotiations, with other parts agreed,

which is unlikely, the costs for the UK of a sudden disruption might be huge. In 2018, the government’s own analysis concluded that the UK economy might end up between 6 and 9 per cent smaller,

in the long run, under a “no-deal” scenario. This is significantly worse than the already bad outcome of a free trade agreement in goods. Moreover, a sudden shift from current arrangements would

impose a shock. The UK would not, as Mr Johnson claims, “prosper mightily”. Responsible governments do not inflict such shocks on their economies.

A last response is that, in the end, Mr Johnson will retreat from his red lines. That is what he did last October over the Irish border issue, when he accepted the economic dismemberment of his

own country, something his predecessor had refused outright, all the while denying he had done any such thing. The ability to surrender while successfully insisting that one has not is a form of genius.

Maybe, the prime minister can find a description for humiliating surrenders that dress them up as great victories. I would certainly not put it past him.

This, however, is hope against hope. As things stand, there is a fundamental conflict over the scope of the envisaged agreements, over governance of the new deal and, probably most vexing, over data,

fish and the “level playing field”. There is in brief much disagreement over the nature of the prospective relationship and very little time in which to agree. A likely result is no deal. If so, the greater the

ensuing disruption, the more the Johnson government is likely to try to blame it on the EU. It might even seek revenge, possibly by trying to ally itself with the US against the EU.

Above all, remember this: a limited free trade agreement would be better than no deal; but it will still hurt.

Sossadtoday · 05/02/2020 10:14

Thank you for these continued threads, I feel so depressed by the whole situation. Good to follow people discussing it as you'd think it was all over out there...

TheElementsOdeToJoy · 05/02/2020 10:19

On a bit of a tangent, I've been vaguely following the Pandemic thread in Preppers which is (as is in fact typical of the Preppers threads I have seen in the past) mostly a calm space with practical suggestions, intelligent discussion and sensible links to actual news/science/data.

As you would expect, there are the occasional drive-by ploppers shrieking something about panic or hysteria. What I found interesting was a couple of more persistent, and peculiarly angry, posters, who took the further step of accusing the thread of wishing illness upon [not sure at this point, but presumably all of humanity].

I couldn't help but see the parallels with UnBeLeavers being blamed for Talking Britain Down and causing Brexit to fail.

Swipe left for the next trending thread