Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Canada Plus and the Transition Phase

992 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2020 19:57

As we approach the 31st January, we slowly tick towards exit and transition.

Things are not yet signed off though the No Deal planning has quietly been stood down with no press release and the government have said they won't talk about trade deals post 31st Jan because the public are bored of them and don't understand.

The new EU president has said that the UK doesn't have time to make a full deal with the EU before 31st December with a deadline which isn't flexible.

We still have no idea what the government plans are. We still have many EU citizens feeling very vulnerable.

Perhaps we should start talking about this rather than Royals for a couple of weeks...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
QueenOfThorns · 24/01/2020 15:14

I'm just waiting for them to say that if your passport has EU on it, you'll have to renew it (at the full price) even if it's valid for another nine years as in my case.

They can fuck right off with that! I got my new one early, ahead of alleged Brexit Day number 1 and I will carry that one for the next 9 years thank you very much!

QueenOfThorns · 24/01/2020 15:16

Wasn’t it John Cleese in Holy Grail, GeistohneGretchen?

BigChocFrenzy · 24/01/2020 15:27

Thanks for the trade link, misti

Maybe BJ could use "decorations":

Award Brexit "The Order of The British Empire" and declare it a win for Britain, job done

ListeningQuietly · 24/01/2020 15:38

Grenzen
It was a Cleese line, but definitely Python Grin

RedToothBrush · 24/01/2020 16:38

Do you feel poorer than in 2016?

Peter Foster@pmdfoster
We often hear #brexit economic forecasts were all wrong. Nothing has happened! The doomsters were wrong!

Not right, per fascinating new paper by @DennisNovy et al which shows sterling crash cost h'hold £870/year - or the nation £450m a week! 1/thread

cepr.org/active/publications/discussion_papers/dp.php?dpno=14176

He calculates sterling ££ slump drove up import costs, which had the effect of increasing consumer prices by 2.9% - and UK prices up by 1.9% compared to Euro area. /2

So taking into account decline in real wages, the average house hold had to spend 1.4 weeks' more wages to afford same amount of goods. Or collectively, £450m a week! /3

So what does all that really prove?

Well, for a start, since we don't live the counter-factual, these numbers aren't actually felt 'on the street' in a way that necessarily translates into politics.

^After all, @BorisJohnson
just won an 80-seat mandate to double down /4^

But it also - and this where things get dangerous, I fear - fuels the idea in the upper political echelons of government that the economy can be 'decoupled' from politics. /5

So you can do really quite damaging things and not suffer political costs.

@realDonaldTrump trade policy has, in aggregate, hit US manufacturers with higher costs, but it might not yet stop him winning re-election. /6

As we contemplate the coming EU-UK trade negotation, we have cabinet ministers airily waving away the concerns of industry, blithely declaring that sectors like cars and chemicals are in "secular decline" /7

After @sajidjavid said the UK would diverge and business would have to face the consequences, groups like @SMMT that represent car makers said it would cost "billions", but this government apparently doesn't care.

So LONG as nobody notices. But will they? /8

Well, that's an interesting one.

Post #Brexit, for example, a UK-car company will have to show that a vehicle is more than 50% made with UK 'content' to export at preferential rates, to say, South Korea. A UK car is typically 30% UK made. One 'fix' is to switch to EU. /9

So this is already happening. In July BMW shifted engine production from its Hams Hall plant to Germany to ensure that its cars destined for South Africa could meet content thresholds. /10

amp.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/09/bmw-engine-production-uk-brexit-fears?__twitter_impression=true
BMW moves some engine production out of UK over Brexit fears

And guess what?

@BorisJohnson still won an 80-seat majority, backed by people in living in the West Midlands - Hams Hall is in Warwickshire constituency of @craig4nwarks - Conservativ, Maj, 17,956 /11

It will be interesting to so whether Mr Tracey, and other MPs like him, will try and lobby their own government not to inflict further pain?

And at what point the government's political calculation will be swayed by risk of serious disruption? /12

If it means a companies relocating jobs quietly inside the EU single market, the government seems perfectly content to wear this. /13

It is an odd thing for a govt to do, actively gearing up an entire Whitehall machine to make people poorer, but as we can see, it's not necessarily politically suicidal. /14

The risk for the Government, I suspect, is complacency.

They believe economics and politics are decoupled, and wave away warnings about the cost of #Brexit as over-stated....even though they come from industries that, presumably, know their own business. /15

The word from Whitehall is not really encouraging - staggering levels ignorance and arrogance at the very top of government, backed by much of what I've written above. /16

It must be hoped that fear of a really noticeable, headline making cock-up - say massive queues at Dover, Nissan announcing it's pulling out of UK - will be sufficient for @BorisJohnson to step in and temper some of the wilder ideas. /17

Recall that last year we were definitely having a 'north-south border' and a 'no deal' - "do or die".

Until we were not. Then all those ideas were junked in a trice for a NI-only backstop and the fact of deal - any deal.

This may be the template for phase 2. Or it may not/18

I still think that the message of the election was "get Brexit done".

NOT "come with me on the Long March to the sunny uplands.

I'm still betting that the desire for a quiet life comes to trump the current brave talks. But I can see how I'd be wrong.

Good weekend all. ENDS

Key points here:
Doing things 'so no one notices' - so both economically bad things that they can get away with and decisions that avoid crisis such as queues at Dover

Referencing back about the thread the other day that its in Johnson's interest to make crap economic decisions for poorer areas to keep driving the migration of young to cities to stack the Labour vote and instead do more symbolic gestures about helping the north (eg Lords to York)

Keep watching this.

I don't think Johnson can just go headlong into a crisis with either the EU or US even if economics is decoupled, if it means that it will be 'noticed'.

Everything is about gentle creep not sudden movements...

Westministenders: Canada Plus and the Transition Phase
OP posts:
ListeningQuietly · 24/01/2020 17:09

Everything is about gentle creep not sudden movements...
This is the way the world ends
not with a bang but with a whimper

we are all frogs in a saucepan

ContinuityError · 24/01/2020 17:28

Given the discussion earlier on this thread, this is quite timely:

'Porn block' companies seek £3m in damages

Four companies that were developing age verification schemes for pornography websites are seeking damages after the government scrapped the idea.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51235675

ICouldHaveBeenAContender · 24/01/2020 17:41

Are any of you keeping an eye on the threads in the Politics section? It's like a parallel universe. They ask for 'wider debate' but it's a bit of an echo-chamber at the moment (this thread is in danger of going the same way - and I say that as someone who is far more comfortable here than there!). Some of the posts here would really add a bit more dimension over there. I fear that RTB and DGR are preaching to the converted here (ie me).

DrBlackbird · 24/01/2020 17:42

Oh damn. A lesson in procrastination.

I thought I better become a Labour Party member so I could vote in the leadership election. I was prompted to finally do so after reading the news about the lemming-like desire of the Labour Party to continue on its path of self immolation i.e. the ludicrous insistence that the next labour leader has to be a woman.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-leader-chairman-keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey-lisa-nandy-a9295721.html

Why? How about the most electable leader in order not to subject the country to another four years of the craziness of the Tories?!

But that boat has sailed by four days apparently. So now the most 'moderate' candidate is not endorsed because he's not a woman. Or is that a convenient excuse and he's not being endorsed because he's the most moderate? I despair, but also acknowledge my responsibility for not signing up when I could...

ListeningQuietly · 24/01/2020 17:47

DrBlackbird
I would hope that Mr Starmer has rather more sense than Mr Lavery
and realises that Corbynism was rejected by the country outside the North London bubble.
RLB might be the choice at Millbank, she may not be out in the real world.

AuldAlliance · 24/01/2020 17:50

ICouldHave...
IME there is little point in anyone posting there who does not produce the same echoes as the rest of the chamber inmates. Several have tried.

I think it's all quite symptomatic of the total breakdown in communication between proponents of Leave and Remain in the UK.

(Also, the pics of food, emojis and insults give me the dry boaks.)

DrBlackbird · 24/01/2020 17:58

Listening I share that hope! And fingers crossed that there has been a lesson learned from the recent election. But then so few things in politics give me hope these days. Angry

DrBlackbird · 24/01/2020 18:01

And I don't mind being one of the converted being preached to Smile although I see this thread as being more about listening to voices of thoughtful and informed analysis about what's happening with/to our economy and our politics.

ListeningQuietly · 24/01/2020 18:04

The three biggest unions are backing three different candidates
for any of the main three to walk away now would betray part of the Labour party

ICouldHaveBeenAContender · 24/01/2020 18:07

Auld you are probably right. Unfortunately. Sigh.

(Agree especially re the insults. Is it worth reporting do you think? It's all very one-sided!)

DGRossetti · 24/01/2020 18:08

I fear that RTB and DGR are preaching to the converted here (ie me)

Ooooo I'd hope I'm not preachy ! I have zero interest in proselyting (except when using that word makes someone reach for a dictionary). Brexit and the UKs fast expiring membership of the EU are important parts of my identity having grown up in the UK with an Italian father.

I came across MN in 2010, when it popped up as a forum, and I was tasked with "social media engagement" by an employer. Then - as luck would have it - the wise heads in "Relationships" managed to prevent me from going mad and explained so much about my recent life that I am still in awe of.

Beyond that I can only look after myself and mine. Last year was probably the last hurrah. I have zero fucks to give for Labour and their travails, and the same for the LibDems. My priorities are pretty much now: get back to work, and try and encourage DS to get out of this country before it drags him down.

ICouldHaveBeenAContender · 24/01/2020 18:09

I see this thread as being more about listening to voices of thoughtful and informed analysis about what's happening with/to our economy and our politics

Couldn't agree more, DrBlackbird. It's why I can't keep away! So many links to such a wide range of sources. Just wish it had a wider audience, that's all.

ICouldHaveBeenAContender · 24/01/2020 18:13

Please don't take offence, DGR ! I just meant there seems greater coherence of views here now than there was before the last election.

DGRossetti · 24/01/2020 18:22

Please don't take offence, DGR !

I'd like to think very little offends me, apart from deliberate ignorance, which is usually at the root of a lot of offence. I am very much of the Fryian view of offence ... it confers no special powers on anyone and is really a whine .... that offends me, this offends me. I'm offended ...

So fucking what ?

I was trying to say that posting here is really just passing the time, not some heaven sent mission to single handedly reverse Brexit Grin. It's not the only forum I subscribe to, but it's one of the more informed, in places. Besides, I need to keep reminding myself what websites used to be like in the 1990s ... and yes, MNHQ I am disrespecting you. I am disrespecting you to the max Grin

RedToothBrush · 24/01/2020 18:57

When I get everything a bit more on track I will eventually wander over in that direction.

I've felt a little like my head has been jammed up my arse in recent months and I've not managed to do much productive. A lot of its due to moving and just not being settled in properly and some of it has been due to other people in real life.

I only just feel like I've got over Christmas, so I really do need to sort my shit out.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 24/01/2020 19:31

imo the Brexiters on those threads won't be receptive to anything we say until the wheels fall off in 2021 or whenever

Losing part of a predicted GDP increase or standard of living increase doesn't feel like a problem, because people don't actually feel poorer
and hence claim we're inventing it all

Hence why I won't bother posting anywhere but Westministenders on Brexit or politics

The audience has its fingers in its ears
(and both thumbs up its arse, if you'll excuse the riot of metaphors and stretched hands)

BigChocFrenzy · 24/01/2020 19:44

To recap on the WA status:

The HoL decided not to persist with their amendments after the HoC removed them
and the WA has now received Royal Assent

The EP will debate the WA on Wednesday, 29 January
and the WA is expected to pass easily

So Brexit will proceed on schedule and take place at 11pm UK time on Friday 31 January

Transition will be 1 Fenruary to 31 December

  • unless BJ blinks and requests an extension

Although this request is supposed to be by end June, in practice the EU would find a way to extend if he saw sense much later in the year

TheABC · 24/01/2020 20:08

It's an interesting idea that the Government will only go as far as what it can get away with. Judging by Johnson's supporters, it would have to be either:
a) severe shortage of meds
B) people dying from A&E closures
C) supermarkets running empty.

It's going to be interesting to see what it would take to shake people from Brexit denial.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/01/2020 20:16

a) not if it's meds for illnesses they are judgy of, e.g. AIDS
possibly even depression, MH, diabetes ...

b) depends on the sort of people dying

c) Now that would annoy them,
but they might channel the spirit of the Blitz - which they didn't live through - and plucky Britain standing alone against its enemies

RedToothBrush · 24/01/2020 20:31

BCF I completely agree on mist of that. But politics is going to 'move on from Brexit' in the press whilst still firmly being about Brexit.

Somehow there has to be an engagement with using the B word.

OP posts: