Westministenders: Canada Plus and the Transition Phase

[RedToothBrush]

As we approach the 31st January, we slowly tick towards exit and transition.

Things are not yet signed off though the No Deal planning has quietly been stood down with no press release and the government have said they won't talk about trade deals post 31st Jan because the public are bored of them and don't understand.

The new EU president has said that the UK doesn't have time to make a full deal with the EU before 31st December with a deadline which isn't flexible.

We still have no idea what the government plans are. We still have many EU citizens feeling very vulnerable.

Perhaps we should start talking about this rather than Royals for a couple of weeks...

[borntobequiet]

m.youtube.com/watch?v=-LAIJjfCIUs

[ListeningQuietly]

Thank you Red, and I apologise for the @ !

This has been a strange month in do many ways

utterly anti climactic
while at the same time unbelievably important

BUT
it does come down to letting those who took the choices own them
and when they shout
why did you not warn us
having the umpteen thousand posts lined up to say
we did
because they will

Pranayama is very useful in these situations

[RedToothBrush]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3805322-Westminstenders-The-Final-Week?watched=1

[ListeningQuietly]

(a) @Bigchocfrenzy @RedToothBrush - new thread needed

(b) My head hurts after another day banging my head against outdated legislation whose replacement was lined up for late 2016 but has been on hold ever since.
It makes me really sad when I see the small changes that would have made a big difference had they been enacted.

[malylis]

The actions of his followers does not make him hard left nor more than it would make him hard right. That's a poor explanation. Policies make him hard left or right.

Hard bullying can be part of any party. Notice the Tories all being told toe the line by Cummings et al. Removing the whip from the rebels voting in line with their democratic parliamentary representative role.

Blair forcing everyone "on message"

[BigChocFrenzy]

Foot was much more radical, but he was a fierce democrat (and patriot)
he didn't have a clique of bullies supporting him and trying to silence or drive out his opponents.

There was Militant Tendency at the time, who were the "hard" bullying left, but they weren't his fans

[BigChocFrenzy]

Corbyn is "hard" left because of the aggressive tactics of many of his followers,
the threats and insults suffered by some opponents within Labour who disagree with him

This is organised, not just a few bad apples

It's not about his policies, which would be quite mainstream in say Germany - but the SPD aren't aggressive towards dissenters

[Peregrina]

have admitted they only nominated him because they never thought he had a hope of getting in

Doing things for the wrong motive happens all the time. As Cameron holding his Referendum to shut his right wing up - that went well. He should have forced them to make a proper case for Leaving the EU - a bit like the Scots Nats did with their Referendum. Now I know that people said that their case had a lot of holes in it, but they produced something which could be argued with and debated.

[malylis]

Bigchoc.

Corbyn is not hard left, Foot's manifesto was more radical.

See its hard to debate seriously when hyperbolic terms are applied

[malylis]

We should be supporting a return to the boundaries before 1967.

I don't think Corbyn is antisemitic, sadly the issue (which in fact in numbers in Labour is small) was weaponised. Labour didn't deal with it well within the party though.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Yep, Michael Foot received a lot of UNdeserved demonisation
He had genuine talent, did not consort with the country's enemies, had little in common with Corbyn
He was of the democratic left, not the hard left

[BigChocFrenzy]

Those moderate MPs - iirc Margaret Hodge was one ? - have admitted they only nominated him because they never thought he had a hope of getting in

They were playing to the gallery, trying to look cool without actually doing anything - my definition of virtue-signalling
They just cocked it up, because their virtue-signalling had direct consequences, instead of the usual meaningless posing and hot air

There is a big difference between encouraging controversial debates to happen on party policy - which is part of democracy - and directly enabling a leader to be nominated who is a disaster for the country and the party

[Peregrina]

I suspect I'd come out as an anti semite at times, if "anti semite" is trying to be a synonym for "doesn't think the sun shines out of Israels arse"

Quite.

As for Labour leaders, I am old enough to remember when Michael Foot was lambasted for wearing a 'donkey jacket' at the Cenotaph. It wasn't, it was actually quite a good coat, but obviously of the wrong cut. To my knowledge he didn't reek of alcohol and lay the wreathe the wrong way.

[BigChocFrenzy]

"the accepted definition of antisemitism"

Here I am on the side of those who don't want to shut down civilised discussion, whether about immigration, Israel, privatising the NHS or whatever

People shouldn't be called anti-semitic for advocating returning to the 1947 borders,
anymore than being called racist for wanting to limit or stop immigration,
or wanting to exterminate the poor by privatising the NHS

Unwise, impractical, foolish - sure
Sometimes even with bad intentions
but let this all come out in debate

Of course anyone who use insults about race, such as Haty Hopkins, or even worse actions like Britain First, should be shut down,
but in a democracy we should be able to debate even emotionally charged issues, rather than no-platforming

fwiw, I support the 1967 borders,
but oppose BJ's copying the USA in outlawing BDS (Boycott, Divestment, Santions) actions
Again, because it should be the free choice of individuals to boycott and to have access to information to do so.

[Peregrina]

Corbyn wasn't and isn't Leadership material, but I personally doubt that he's any more anti-semitic than the average Tory. I also think that criticising Israel doesn't make you anti-semitic either. Not all Jews support Israel.

[malylis]

What a lot of rubbish!

There is no virtue signalling.

I'm one of those who is old enough to remember too. I remember the context of many of the things now portrayed as terrorist sympathising.

Like I said, many examples of things said and done by the tories are given a pass by the press.

Imagine of a member of the Labour shadow cabinet had called two jewish MPs members od the illuminati? We know what happened when we compare scruffiness at the cenotaph.

[DGRossetti]

Maylis, you cannot deny that Corbyn was an anti Semite. He refused the accepted definition of antisemitism

I suspect I'd come out as an anti semite at times, if "anti semite" is trying to be a synonym for "doesn't think the sun shines out of Israels arse".

can't speak for anyone else on this thread or in the UK, but I'm quite hot on proper objective definitions. People who abuse people tend to start abusing language first.

[BigChocFrenzy]

I'm one of those who can remember Corbyn's actions going back to when he first became an MP in 1983
He reaaly was unfit to be leader

Back in 2015, some moderate MPs, including centrist ones, added their votes to his nomination for leader, to show how fair-minded they were that all views would be heard
The supposed adults virtue-signalled and landed us all with a dim-witted perpetual student agitator as Opposition Leader

[malylis]

I'm not confident it will switch back. But I feel the crowing about them remaining is a little over confident

[squid4]

I'm not as confident as malylis that it will swing back at another election though. I think it depends on whether this stuff becomes common knowledge in the meantime, whether people actually care, and then things like what happens with brexit and the climate crisis. They've used brexit very effectively, I don't see why they couldn't weaponise another issue in the same way.

Climate crisis will worsen all refugee situations so the rightwing pushback may be even harder in a few years time. that's the pessimistic take. optimistically we would get together globally and do something about it! It's going to require a huge effort to overcome vested interests there though and australia usa and uk at least have been voting very much in line so far... :(

[malylis]

I can deny that Corbyn was an antisemite, the reason behind the delay ( not refusal) to accept the IHRA definition was due to legitimate oncerns that it could be used to label criticism of Israel.

Note at the same time the Tories hadn't accepted it either. No outcry there.

The IRA ? Which members? When? Where?

I note that a leading minister in the Tory government made antisemitic remarks, no where near as much fuss made (nor about associations with antisemitic organisations or individuals)
.
He was never against our armed forces.

[squid4]

Agree with maylis and it's delusional to suggest it doesn't have a huge effect. Why else would they pay so much for it?

Exactly the same thing happened in Australia. Same online team too. These people have the same backers.

Our legal system is about two decades behind what is happening online in elections. We aren't seeing it unless we're in target seats (i'm not but I have friends that were and the facebook stuff they showed me was appalling, relentless, and lies)

Read Edward Snowden.

And yes, I am bored to tears of the victim status of the "winners". Oh poor us we were forced to vote tory and now people are critical of us. Oh we've got everything we voted for and we don't want anyone to even discuss it any more.

[Coppersulphate]

Maylis, you cannot deny that Corbyn was an anti Semite. He refused the accepted definition of antisemitism.
And he was photographed several,times with the IRA and with Hezbollah who he referred to as friends.

He has always been against our armed forces.

The press have only reported what he has said or done.

[ListeningQuietly]

People did not vote for Corbyn because his message was incoherent on Brexit and over complicated on everything else.
There was no soundbite that voters could get hold of.
That was a crass failing that RLB will not rectify.

[malylis]

Ah so in which way weren't they interested?

Again focusing against what is in all the surveys and being revisonist.

Brexit and Corbyn were the issues. Corbyn issues were mostly repeated press stuff.

And yes the right are winning victims, its a clever policy to make powerful majorities feel like oppressed minorities