Westminstenders: War and Weirdos

[RedToothBrush]

With weirdos set to run No10 and Trump seemingly having started a new war in the Middle East, 2020 already looks set to be a cracking year.

To start off your year, it turns out that chinese curse about interesting times is actually a fallacy...

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_you_live_in_interesting_times

Happy New Year.

May we make 2030...

It doesn't matter how big BJ's majority is, his Brexit vision is unreal and unrealisable. Mrs Van der Leyen told him so.

Like a five year old who's dug a hole in the garden and now wants to bring it indoors. He can cry all he likes.

DGR
-British leaving the UK for anywhere in the world ? = Expats
-Not British coming to the UK ? = Immigrants or, even worse, migrants.

Louise - From Starmer to Bradshaw, remain MPs are saying exactly that "Brexit will happen..." these folk are arguing for a better relationship with Europe, thats all.

The SNP are in a different boat, they see themselves as representing the constituents who voted SNP and Remain.

What exactly do you want from them? Conversion to Brexitism?

Even if Brexit now means British First

That makes it sound dangerously like Britain First.

No I'm not saying that, apols if it was lack of clarity on my part. I agree that there is an argument to be had about what sort of Brexit, but saying the government "must" commit to x or y outcome before negotiations even start isn't doing that IMO.

My point is that those who oppose Brexit in Parliament, which they are perfectly entitled to do, should first acknowledge that it has now achieved both a direct and a parliamentary mandate.

You seem to be implying that you think all opposition parties should stand down for the duration of a Parliament.

And that sounds dangerously like a dictatorship...
The shut up get over it mantra has really damaged us, hasn't it?

Louise Collins
"The first reaction of those of our representatives who think differently is to try to change the terms of negotiation."

Asking that the government 'seek to negotiate full membership' to remain with the Erasmus programme is not trying to change the terms of negotiation.

How long before we get a referendum on joing the EEA?

Seeking to negotiate sth isn't committing to the outcome of those negotiations. Unless you presume those you negotiate with will comply with all that you request.

My point is that those who oppose Brexit in Parliament, which they are perfectly entitled to do

so what's changed ? You were extremely vociferous before the election in arguing that MPs opposed to Brexit should shut up and vote for all and any Brexit bills in Parliament. In fact it was your mantra.

You can't get away with saying "now we've had the GE" as we also had an election after the referendum in 2017. So what else has changed ? Is Mars square Venus, Saturn and Jupiter ? Is Capricorn rising ?

Some of that is fair criticism DGR, some less so.

Recently, I was criticizing people who in the period Jul 2016 - Dec 2019 were trying to stop Brexit, not oppose it, not change it, not stop "No Deal" but trying to stop Brexit. It just so happened that most of those trying to do all those other things were in fact trying to stop Brexit.

I was, as you rightly suggest, extremely keen for those who wanted to stop "No Deal" to vote for "Deal".

The 2017 election resulted in the largest party being TMs Conservatives, with a post election majority only achieved with the DUP. The 2019 election fought by Boris on the basis of "Get Brexit Done" ad nauseum resulted in his getting a majority. See the difference?

"an election result that gave very strong backing to the Johnson version of Brexit"

The ref at least gave a 52% majority of thos who voted; the GE didn't, adding up Tories+BXP

Overwhelming support that ends a discussion - for a while - is e.g. as in the 1975 referendum, when Remain won with 67.2% of the vote

It's also worth pointing out that although the UK FPTP system resulted in a majority in Parliament for BJ, a majority of voters didn't vote for him and in fact voted either for parties who wanted to revoke (or hold Indyref2 because the majority had voted for Remain ) and/or renegotiate and hold a PV

See the difference?

Not sure I do, but like a lot of things GE2019 hits reset again.

The thing is, in a democracy, you are supposed to be able to avail yourselves of all the tools of democracy to advance your position. Yes, we all know the 52/48 split of 2016. But there's nothing in the democratic playbook that states referenda trump anything. Well, not the UK democratic playbook. I guess if you like your democracy a bit more African or South American, that's the rules. But then if you like South America so much, why not just move there ?

"Tools of democracy" UK style are: Freedom of speech. Freedom of assembly. Freedom of thought. And freedom of choice.

Well, they were. I have a feeling I might not be so confident in 2024.

"Brexit will now happen"
You keep to be demanding that the losing parties in a GE say "we give up" on key policies

• when the country roughly split in 2 over Brexit

Brexiters do seem very resentful of normal British Parliamentary processes

So should Labour say after losing (probably) the next GE:

"benefit cuts will now happen",
"austerity will now happen"

Of course, with a large majority, whatever the govt wants will happen

Some would have voted based on the slogan "Get Brexit done" but many more wouldn't have.
Anecdotally, many remainers i know voted Tory because thats what they do, the alternative wasn't acceptable and i'm talking LD here not Corbyns Labour, Swinson switched off many remainers with her Revoke policy.

Anyhow, its over, we can argue until the cows come home but we won't rejoin (for at least 15 to 20 years, if at all) and we won't influence Johnson/Cummings.... we are entirely at their whim.

Anyone else regret May not getting her WA through?

Some would have voted based on the slogan "Get Brexit done" but many more wouldn't have.

Indeed, many will have voted on a "Please shut up about it" ticket. They weren't interested in the EU prior to 2016 and they are not interested now. They will be interested if the promised investment in the NHS doesn't happen, or transport or housing isn't fixed and it will become increasingly hard to blame anyone else but Johnson and his Tories.

Anyhow, its over, we can argue until the cows come home but we won't rejoin (for at least 15 to 20 years, if at all)

Who knows what the EU will become in 20 years. Freed of the millstone of the UK, the 2-track idea might take off and settle a lot of gripes. The need to deal with the refugees from climate change will probably drive a lot of changes too. It's hard not to feel the US and UK are zigging while the world is zagging.

That said, I can't help but think of Brexit as being a bit like a wall between Mexico and the US. Not sure why. But it's worth noting that despite it being a Trumpian foreshadowing of "Get Brexit Done !", not a single brick has been laid.

They weren't interested in the EU prior to 2016 and they are not interested now

Absolutely! i cannot believe the number of leave voters i know who completely lost interest in Brexit and wouldn't have cared if we had stayed or left, they just wanted it to stop.

I know a fair number of remain voters who felt the same.

Iran has admitted that it did shoot down the Ukranian plane .....

I share school runs with another A&E doctor (a consultant)
Bed occupancy has never been higher no one can even get a space in A&E just in corridors and ambulances
Waits have never been longer
It has never ever been this bad
It is going to get much worse
The hospital bosses are freaking out & don't know what to do

When (more) A&Es start shutting will people notice? When (more) people die will people notice? I guess not

Apparently we were "scaremongering"

my hospital rota which i get emailed weekly is full of sickness and vacancies
it belies the true story as lots of people are just calling in sick on the day and not turning up, come back the next day
trying to get through what they can

Iran has admitted that it did shoot down the Ukranian plane .....

Which might explain why they've toned down the rhetoric ?

Be interesting to compile a list of countries that have shot down civilian airliners. America, obviously. Maybe it's the new growth industry of the 2020s ? Something the UK could get involved in on the ground floor. I must admit, I'd be curious to know how well those missiles work.