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Brexit

Brexit Arms - Out with the old and in with the new

999 replies

time4chocolate · 20/12/2019 12:16

It’s time again for another Brexit Arms thread to see us into Christmas and beyond.

Well what a week it’s been!!

Boris has now completed his first week and he’s been busy. New conservatives have been sworn in, the Queens Speech yesterday shows promise (aware that the proof of the (Xmas) pudding is in the eating) and Boris’ Deal is going to be voted on today with the results being around 3pm I believe.

Meanwhile, on the other side all four wheels have definitely fallen off the red bus and were very nearly joined by a garden gate and a car door. Oh dear!!

Anyway, I have added a few more Christmas decs to the pub and popped the fairy back on the tree (it took a nasty tumble)

We are now good to go.
Cheers all 🍷🍷

Ps. If anyone wants to volunteer for outside catering that would be👍🏻

Brexit Arms - Out with the old and in with the new
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DustyDiamond · 21/12/2019 23:16

ranting in his Cornish pasty shoes against anyone and everything

😂😂😂😂

How they laughed at our NHS faces...
Now we guffaw at the pasty shoes!

Poor Jezza 😢

Only got half the cleaning done today (my house is tiny, so this is proof of my procrastination & can't-be-arsedness)

Nearly all washing done and upstairs to clean tomoz 😩

On the July 2020 thing, I've heard/read somewhere that this is the date by which BJ needs to decide if he wants a transition extension (might be something to do with EU summit dates or something?)
Either way, BJ is tamper-proofing the WA so whilst extending past Dec 2020 is still entirely possible, it's not a given

Also thought the same thing Hate, every time they extended A50 - it's eating into transition time.... 🤷🏻‍♀️

SingingLily · 21/12/2019 23:22

I'm rather pleased my recall is reasonably correct - the end of the 2 yr Transition period triggered by A50 is the end of Dec 2020. If an extension is required the UK must request this by July 2020 under the existing EU Law outlined for a member state that chooses to Leave.*

Sorry to contradict you, Hate, but the two year period triggered by Article 50 is a notice period, not a transition period, and it originally ran until 29 March 2019. The notice period was extended three times by mutual agreement between the UK and the EU until 31 January 2020.

The one thing that the Irish Times did get right is that when we leave on 31 January 2020, we are legally - according to both UK and EU law - no longer a member of the EU and therefore outside the jurisdiction of the Lisbon Treaty.

At that point, the Withdrawal Bill (once it becomes UK law, and providing the EU 27 ratify their agreement to it) becomes the sole source of our legal relationship with the EU.

The Irish Times article appears to be talking nonsense.

TheWorldturnedUpsideDown · 21/12/2019 23:32

Henry dedes, I really like his work.

I don't feel at all sorry for the corbyn, and whilst I want labour to regroup, they are descending into farce, I can't be bothered with them right now at all.

TheWorldturnedUpsideDown · 21/12/2019 23:33

Dusty, I'm way behind, not even half the house done.

HateIsNotGood · 21/12/2019 23:40

No worries Lily, I'm happy to be corrected, I was just talking from the top of my head (though some might say from elsewhere of course) - as I've been busy out-spouting my true to self ideas elsewhere. A by-product of releasing my angst build-up the past 3 yrs; I'm just human, like the rest of us.

Seeing as you're here, have you any insights that you can provide in regards to Dominic Cummins, whilst I'm mindful that an Internet Forum, indeed one called MN, might not be the best place to ask.

The way he checks out a room with such an eviscerating stare is quite intriguing - normally I'd suggest someone cuts down their drug use when they stare like that - but I suspect he's quite au naturelle. I could be completelely wrong of course, as I quite often can be.

SingingLily · 21/12/2019 23:56

Never met him, Hate, although I've read his blog and also read an article about him by his wife, Mary Wakefield. His thinking is unusually clear and logical: the Jesuits would be proud. He also, by all accounts, is very direct with people and doesn't bother dressing up his manner to win friends. The message, not the method of delivery, is what he considers the only thing of importance. Having said that, he is an acute observer of people and how they react, although for him it seems to be an intellectual exercise rather than an empathetic one.

My next door neighbour is like that (he's not Dom, by the way Grin) and all social interaction is left to his wife. I like my neighbour and get on well with him because he is searingly honest and direct. Many people find that quite uncomfortable. I don't. In fact, I much prefer it. My neighbour is autistic.

I do not know whether Dominic Cummings is autistic - how can I? - but I think he is wired differently neurologically and that's why he is so very good at his current role.

Is that along the lines of what you are thinking?

DustyDiamond · 22/12/2019 00:23

I've read something about him being an information junkie
Holes himself away & immerses himself in soaking up info - historical, strategic etc

He seems to be able to grasp the zeitgeist & get to the nuts and bolts of disquiet

He's also very adept at strategising and playing several moves ahead of his opponents - I think he has a real talent for the psychology of politics & messaging too

Like Lily, I often prefer dealing with people who cut through the niceties & get to the crux of something - Dom is apparently that sort of person.
No bullshit, and no time for people who don't pull their weight. The type that puts a lot of backs up but doesn't give a shit about it.

I'd imagine he's quite an intimidating person to work with, but it's also probably quite awesome to see him in action...

TheWorldturnedUpsideDown · 22/12/2019 00:41

I'm quite fascinated by dom as well.

He's v keen chess player who sees strategy and plays and plans with the goal in view.

jewel1968 · 22/12/2019 00:49

I guess it will play out but the author is Ronan McCrea who is professor of constitutional and European law at University College London. One would hope he may be plugged in.

scaryteacher · 22/12/2019 01:09

SingingLily My Mum sold raffle tickets to Mr Cox a couple of weeks ago..said he was very nice, and bought quite a lot of tickets as well. He's her MP.

You are correct in that the two years period post A50 expired on 29.03.19, as I caved and swapped my UK licence for a Belgian one, as everything else would trolly on as normal for Brits in Belgium, but not driving licences. I now have to do another DVLA dance to get my Brit one back (having already done the NOVA reimportation of the car and the V55/5 to get my plates back.

I was heartened to see that Boris has said there will be no regulatory alignment with the EU once we have left...so he is either going for no FTA, or will push for a Canada++++. Interesting piece in the DT today by Campbell Bannerman who used to sit on the EU FTA committee..no reason a Canada++++ can't be done in the time scale available.

scaryteacher · 22/12/2019 01:14

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/dominic-cummings-loner-friend-now-running-country/

For those who want to know more about DC by one of his friends.

HateIsNotGood · 22/12/2019 01:53

Thanks muchly for the explano Lily - it all makes perfect sense to me; I have an autistic ds, so I recognize those signs. However I also see autism as a perfectly normal part of the 'human condition' yes first sign of madness, it's them not me

I definately aver that it is society (in it's current form) that feels the need to identify and differentiate autistic humans as requiring need, rather than society itself that is in need. This need might include the advice that autistic humans and their brains and thought-processes can provide to our current 'needy' society.

Or it might not. Just sayin....

SingingLily · 22/12/2019 07:46

Morning, all,

May Zeus have mercy on us! No more rain, please. Still, leave your umbrella in the stand by the front door and walk into the warmth of the Brexit Arms where the complimentary breakfast tray awaits you. Today, it's Ulster Fry: eggs, bacon, sausages, mushrooms, baked beans and bubble & squeak. Please help yourselves.

Hate, my little niece too, and I love her to bits for a million reasons, one of which is her totally logical thinking. She's only ten and wants to be either a flight attendant or a spy at GCHQ when she grows up. Flight attendant, hmm, not so hot at customer service but she'd make a great cryptographer. She once emailed me a code she had devised from emojis, asking me to remember it "for all further communications". I had to explain I can't even remember who did what in Midsomer Murders so she's no chance.

Scary, what a pain about your driving licence and car. Of the variations then on offer, I seem to recall Boris had always preferred Canada++ but without Theresa's infamous backstop. I think, though, that he will use contemporaneous UK/US negotiations to lever the best deal with the EU and he will ensure that it applies to "the UK whole and entire". He can't let NI slip away even slightly or the bagpipes will,be playing even more loudly in Nicola's head.

Looking forward to meeting Mr Cox!

Yes, I would have hoped so too, Jewel1968, but one of the things I had drummed into me when I did media training (delivered jointly by the BBC and the MoD Press Office) was to ask myself "who is your market" and "what is your agenda". That's why I prefer to read widely across the political spectrum. One article is just one person's view.

Kettle's on. ☕️☕️☕️

Brexit Arms - Out with the old and in with the new
SingingLily · 22/12/2019 08:10

Apologies for another long post but here is an an excerpt an article in The Times by Natascha Engel, former Labour MP whose Derbyshire East constituency turned blue. It was headed "The working classes are tired of being told what to think".

In the old pit villages, they used to weigh the Labour vote. Recently there weren’t so many votes to weigh for any political party. They certainly didn’t vote for Blair, but in those days the Labour Party didn’t mind. They knew that the working-class vote had nowhere else to go. And they were right. Politically homeless, they stayed at home.

The days of the working classes making a difference in elections were long gone, but it wasn’t until the turn of the century that the middle-class progressive elite really grabbed hold of all the remaining power and discourse.

And the working class might have remained passive and disengaged if it hadn’t been for the constant finger-wagging, being told to be more aspirational, to stop smoking/vaping/drinking and, more recently, to stop flying and eating red meat. Progressives telling them they knew what was best for them was getting really annoying.

The EU and our membership of it became an expression of this of being told what was best. It came up on the doorsteps a lot, even in 2001. Immigration not so much, but the fact that people never got a say about the EU, that it was never in any of the manifestos of any of the mainstream political parties, was something that started angering more and more people. It was a matter of sovereignty and democracy for them.--

So when the EU referendum finally came, there was a political reawakening in these communities. Most people couldn’t believe it was actually happening but when it did, and the country voted for Leave, everything changed. There was again a feeling that the working class was a much bigger thing large enough to influence the outcome of elections.

After the referendum, the Brexit-voting working classes heard how Remain liberals and many in the Labour Party talked about them: as racists who were too stupid to understand what they were voting for, how there were some things that were too important to be decided by the electorate, and how this was a backlash against having been left behind by globalisation.

Left behind? They just wanted to be left alone! They looked at their own values, their own sense of right and wrong, and they preferred it to the confusion and chaos of what the political elites in London seemed to be obsessed with: antisemitism, transgenderism and net-zero carbon emissions. It’s not that they disagreed with the parties’ positions on them, it’s that they have absolutely no bearing on their daily lives.

And this was the genius of the Tory manifesto. It spoke to those fundamental values without ideology. It didn’t ask working-class voters to change allegiances. It said that the Conservative Party had come to them, that their values were the same as those of the Tories.

Ms Engel says a great deal more of course but the subtext is "if you want your voters to come back, talk to them, don't talk down to them".

I'll see you much later. Things to do in RL, one of which is devising a treasure hunt for my little niece. The clues have to be really cryptic or they don't meet the required standard. She keeps my brain active. Grin

DustyDiamond · 22/12/2019 08:34

Morning all! Brew
Only 3 days til the fat lad comes to visit!! 🎅🏻

She once emailed me a code she had devised from emojis, asking me to remember it "for all further communications"

Brilliant!
My boys used to have codes & be all up on various spycraft stuff but it was very, very easy to crack... 😂

Enjoy your treasure hunt later 😍

"constant finger-wagging, being told to be more aspirational, to stop smoking/vaping/drinking and, more recently, to stop flying and eating red meat. Progressives telling them they knew what was best for them was getting really annoying...

...racists who were too stupid to understand what they were voting for, how there were some things that were too important to be decided by the electorate, and how this was a backlash against having been left behind by globalisation.

Left behind? They just wanted to be left alone!"

🙌🙌🙌

Where on earth were all these Labour MPs during the last 2 decades?!

hospitalityinspector · 22/12/2019 09:08

Delicious aromas coming from the Arm's breakfast bar there Lily. That's a proper Sunday breakfast.

Lily's Times article for me captures the essence of common sense amongst the majority of the electorate. Week after week on Question Time, Andrew Marr etc we were bombarded with these woke MPs and journalists/activists telling us all why the referendum result was so wrong and must be reversed.

In the other ear we had Tusk reserving a special place in hell for us and Theresa May being made to have dinner on her own in Brussels by the lovely, caring people in charge of the EU.

All this was enough to make a lot of us wonder if we were missing something here and we would indeed be going to hell in a handcart if we didn't reverse our first vote, now we know what leaving entails.

Extinction rebellion's antics didn't go down well either and IMO cemented a resolve in some voters that enough is enough of this preachy wokeness. Everyone I know is aware and doing their bit for the environment and we've looked on aghast at the hypocrisy of such groups and the mess they leave behind for others to clear up after their protests.

Twattage13 · 22/12/2019 09:24

Morning all - I'll take an eggs on toast please LL (feeling a little full from over-indulgence since Thursday).

Lily I don't think it's just the working class who are tired of being talked down to - I'm also sick of it (I am working class roots from a council house but cannot honestly say I am now - I guess I'm middle class, I've worked really hard without any handouts from the state or from family, and done well for myself).

I am fed up of the majority of my friends / peers at work being condescending about leavers and assuming we are all thick and racist. It's really dangerous to assume that everyone else feels exactly the same way as you from the moment you start a conversation, and then to continue to speak in a way that doesn't allow for healthy discourse of different views.

There is no way I can disclose how I voted either on FB or IRL - I would probably lose work / friends because of it. It really saddens me that we are in a situation where I can't speak freely for fear of the consequences.

I'd say 90% of my friends are remainers (also champagne socialists in the main) and many of them are lovely, but they can't stop taking the moral high ground about Brexit (still). I don't think people are going to be over this for a v long time...

I wonder if we will ever be at a point where I could disclose I voted leave - I can't see it in the near future.

I was also told I was evil last month by someone I loosely know, because I was planning to vote Tory. They wouldn't accept that as a net contributor of £50k+ in tax per year to the UK, that I am happily paying to support many other people who are less well off (and I can also choose to vote how I wish - they asked me to justify in detail why I would be voting Conservative).

Said person was very concerned that in my selfishness I may be stopping her getting free acupuncture on the NHS because the evil Tories may take it away sometime soon. This is someone who was a corporate lawyer and then stopped work to raise a child (no issue with that), and in the process no longer a net contributor in the way I am right now. She no longer has much cash but is very concerned about services being cut locally, whilst at the same time choosing not to work at all.

She told me that I should stop thinking 'everything was about me' and then blocked me on Insta for saying that I was still going to vote Tory. I found her comments pretty intolerant (she also posted a horrible meme about the Tories) and said I'd still continue voluntarily to pay a lot in tax, to support her and many other people in the UK who are less fortunate than me. Apparently this makes me a horrible person in her eyes :(.

Anyway now I've got that off my chest, I'll have a strong coffee as well.

jewel1968 · 22/12/2019 09:34

Singing - fair challenge but who is his market" and "what is his agenda in your view.

And would you not need a deal agreed with enough time to enshrine in UK law? And how long would that be?

DustyDiamond · 22/12/2019 09:36

Extinction rebellion's antics didn't go down well either and IMO cemented a resolve in some voters that enough is enough of this preachy wokeness

Yep!

Anecdotally obvs, but my fb (a huge mix of backgrounds & political leanings due to the various different stages of my life being so different geographically & socially) was pretty much universally put off by extinction rebellion
A very few were supportive
Most are in favour of environmental protection & faster progress but wholly pissed off with the 2019 versions of swampy

Ditto the trans thing - a very few are wholly on board with kool aid consumed, a very few are actually properly transphobic but the vast majority are supportive of their right to not be subject of abuse or discrimination but are now getting mightily pissed off with the massive overreach & are hugely disturbed about the dragging of children into it all

AutumnRose1 · 22/12/2019 09:42

I’m never very eloquent, I know

But this morning all I have is - fuck off Stormzy. Is he trying to be divisive? I presume so.

jewel1968 · 22/12/2019 09:43

Thanks to those that answered my questions and I think I am right in summarising by saying you probably prefer a deal but no deal is ok. One poster did say that they thought the economy might be a bit shaky for a while after a no deal exit.

Is there anything in particular you are a bit worried about in relation to no deal or is there anything you will miss by not being part of EU but feel overall it is for the best to leave.

DustyDiamond · 22/12/2019 09:46

That's rubbish Twattage 😟 💐 Brew

I'll never understand how people can be like that tbh

I do wonder if there's something quite freeing about being 'working class' as opposed to middle class

(I don't mean it in a disparaging way, but can't find the right words - I mean sort of being a part of & living in amongst a working class environment, as opposed to not)

So, in the crewroom or on-site or on the factory floor for eg - the convo & banter is more rough & ready & not couched in carefulness
People are freer to speak their minds (but obvs will often get shouted down as well so need to be robust enough to take that) - but you're not going to lose your job for saying what you think to your mates, you're likely not in a position whereby you are supposed to at least appear as though you're conforming with the 'right' type of thinking

DustyDiamond · 22/12/2019 09:47

Aaargh!!

Posted by accident as I was trying to scroll up to read back my verbal vomit 😩

Hope it makes sone sort of sense - I'm struggling to articulate properly what I mean

AutumnRose1 · 22/12/2019 09:50

Dusty yes

I was thinking, the stream of academic bullshit around identity politics has completely screwed my brain. Anyone who isn’t aware of it is very lucky. It’s possibly a very London workplace thing?

jewel1968 · 22/12/2019 09:56

I think you are right about people not sharing that they voted leave. I have a few friends who voted leave for Lexit reasons but they never openly share their views. And they know lots and I have found them quite compelling when I speak with them. I might not agree with everything they say but I enjoy listening to them. I think it is much better to have reasoned friendly debate as both sides of an argument benefit.

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