Westminstenders: Penny dropping time

[RedToothBrush]

Johnson already seems to be hinting at protections for workers rights and the environment that he promised are to be dropped.

Along with enshrining Brexit in law to the end of Dec 2020 thus creating another Brexit no deal date. This time without any safety net in parliament.

"won't Johnson be more liberal than he suggested" they cry

About that...

Independent saying photo ID for future voters coming in but ...the 15-year limit on expats voting in general elections is to be lifted? So UK citizens living abroad could vote for life?

Must have done studies that both aspects will increase future Tory votes.

The 15 year limit being lifted for emigrants was one of Cameron's promises.

Photo ID - as long as something very cheap is made acceptable, then it's not necessarily bad. We shall have to see on this one. Johnson picked up a lot of votes in Social Classes D and E - the ones less likely to have photo ID and he might need to hang onto their votes.

David Cameron said he was going to lift the 15 year ban but didn't, so actually it's just fulfilling an old promise.

I can't disagree with the photo ID for voting idea and if they introduce a card like you can get in NI, it's not going to be expensive or restrictive for people.

I've just read the Queen's Speech legislative programme on the Times website and there's actually quite a lot of sensible stuff in there, some carried over from May's government. The big question though is whether any of it will get done if the government wastes all its time posturing over Brexit.

x-post with Peregrina!

if they introduce a card like you can get in NI, it's not going to be expensive or restrictive for people.

This I think is the thing worth pushing for. The war time identity cards (which didn't have photos) continued after the war - I am old enough to have had one and they got abolished after a court case when someone had been stopped by the Police and not been able to produce his card.

Times have moved on since then - and now we have to produce ID for this that and the other in the way that we didn't need to do even 20 years ago, so a simple card, costing a modest sum with a photo could save a lot of hassle. However, I do remember that Blair wanted to produce some over-elabourate scheme, and the Tories objected and objected on principle: Can't have Britons having ID cards like these Continentals. Times change hey?

I think something like a bus pass, issued by the Local Authority, or the electoral authority, which tend to overlap, could fit the bill.

I never really understood the argument against ID cards at the time to be honest. Much as I've never really cared about CCTV etc.

The last couple of years have opened my eyes a bit.

By the way, was there ever any follow-up to the story about the Conservatives hoovering up all the confidential information from the gov.uk site? I can't remember the full story now.

I've not heard it mentioned since the story first hit.

If photo ID is introduced with a view to enabling everyone 16+ to have one, that could be useful
So, free or say a tenner, obtainable from easily accessible places, e.g. any PO ....

Not with the intention - as in the US - to exclude the poorest and non-whites from voting
or even just the unintended consequence
So the plans & introduction must be scrutinised carefully

The world has moved on and in any modern industrialised country many people need photo ID frequently,
with a few relevant details such as dob, nationality, sex:

opening a bank account - even an additional one at the same bank, I found - getting a job, applying for additional benefits,
even showing entitlement to some hospital treatment (to show you're British, despite skin & accent) ....

Turn off govt cookies here:

https://www.gov.uk/help/

Not with the intention - as in the US - to exclude the poorest and non-whites from voting or even just the unintended consequence
So the plans & introduction must be scrutinised carefully

This is the key, and with a cheap system costing little more than the photographs, the non-tory political parties could go all out to run voter registration sessions and rebuild their bases that way.

re NTBs:

Prepping of German businesses and institutions etc assumed - because they had to prep for this - that after Brexit it would be more expensive / less convenient / more paperwork etc to import Uk goods and services

They didn't hang around waiting for the Uk to make up its mind what kind of Brexit it wanted

Often, there's not a big difference between potential suppliers, in which case businessses drop any ones that suddenly acquire a big grey cloud over them

Where available, many have already sourced new suppliers and excluded Uk suppliers from new contracts

Lots of contracts already lost
e.g. at my firm from about 2017, longterm UK tech suppliers were no longer on the pulldown menu I had for new projects

I'd be quite happy to have a cheap ID card IF that was all you needed to open a bank account (to be fair I opened one with Starling and it was a painless process).

Stop with all this having to bring in utility bills nonsense. I suspect most people have online bills and bank statements now and they won't accept print-offs.

Interestingly my son's 6th form college card has his DOB on it and we had to produce his passport or birth certificate when he enrolled. They took the photo. So to all intents and purposes it is an ID card. But the local Tescos won't accept it as ID to buy Red Bull (so I am told). Not sure if it would work anywhere for alcohol (or to vote) if he was 18.

PMK.

I like Keir but he is not going to win back the north. Lisa Nandy is their best bet, IMO.

It will take 20 years, though, like it did last time.

I never really understood the argument against ID cards at the time to be honest

That's because it wasn't really against ID cards (which are quite easy to justify administratively). It was the HUGE fuck-off database the (nuLab) government planned to put behind the card. Which would hold your medical details, tax details, police record, etc etc etc. And which would be the only database in the universe that was 100% proof against being hacked.

Take the database away, and ID cards make sense - grudgingly. Although I would still be violently opposed to any measures to (a) require people to carry them and (b) allow officials to require sight of them without just cause. With the crystal clear understanding that "being nosey" is not a just cause.

I am deeply sceptical that this government can manage to introduce a sensible non-scope-crept ID card scheme. But - as with so many things - there's a lot of waiting and seeing to be done.

Take the database away, and ID cards make sense - grudgingly. Although I would still be violently opposed to any measures to (a) require people to carry them and (b) allow officials to require sight of them without just cause. With the crystal clear understanding that "being nosey" is not a just cause.

^^ All of this

On a separate note does anyone know why the Far Right nutters like Tommeh Robinson have thrown their weight behind the Conservative Party and urged their followers to join?

Worries me tbh.

It’s not the kind of people o want to see in a modern political party.

Yes. And eg traffic wardens couldn't ask to see them if they were giving you a ticket and you happened to come back to your car when they were filling it out.

ID cards are fine if they are for my convenience, not fine if they make it easier for petty unelected bureaucrats to make my life more difficult.

On a separate note does anyone know why the Far Right nutters like Tommeh Robinson have thrown their weight behind the Conservative Party and urged their followers to join?

Normalisation of Islamaphobia in the Tory party I should imagine

And eg traffic wardens couldn't ask to see them if they were giving you a ticket and you happened to come back to your car when they were filling it out.

Not sure why you feel that wouldn't warrant production of an ID card, if the car is unlawfully parked, and you are returning as the driver ? (If you're a passenger, then the correct answer should be "oh, do fuck off.").

In reality, I can easily imagine a whole load of hypothetical scenarios being discharged by production of the national ID card. Age-restricted sales and the like.

What I would resist strongly, is a situation where I am minding my own business, just ambling along, and suddenly a state official of some stripe (maybe a temporary deputy assistant trainee road sweeper) jumps out from behind a bush and demands paperien bitte, with their hand over their state-issued S&W .38 just in case I haven't got one.

On a separate note does anyone know why the Far Right nutters like Tommy Robinson have thrown their weight behind the Conservative Party and urged their followers to join?

It's better to serve in hell, than rule in an even shittier hell ?

tbh I think an ID card makes sense these days.
However, the original idea by (Blair?) was verly complicated and it was proposed would contain a lot of extra information on a database, that was linked to the card.
The problem with this, is that I would not be able to see from my card, the data held on me.
So a simple ID card, with name / address / photo is probably a good idea

Just to come back to something form ages ago, working class men can cheer for and support women : I think it is a generalisation to say they won't The darts crowd (almost exclusively white and male) really took Fallon Sherrock to their hearts yesterday. It warmed the cockles to see them so genuinely excited and supportive of a woman doing brilliantly in a man's world.

If you don't know about Fallon, look her up. She smashed through the darts ceiling and has a really interesting background too.

So a simple ID card, with name / address / photo is probably a good idea

Not address. Quite aside from the personal safety implications for women, it's something which can change to easily.

It's really quite simple. A photo, which can be used to verify the person showing the card is the person the card belongs to. A name which can be connected to the name they chose to use in everyday business. And a date of birth, in order to assist with purchasing age-restricted products.

That's it. It doesn't say anything about immigration status, or citizenship or anything else people might think "oh, that's a good idea" to clutter up life with.

The more work you make an ID card do, the more it will cost, and the more valuable it becomes to fraudsters, scamsters and people of bad intent. It will also become much harder to (a) get a replacement if one is lost/stolen/defaced and (b) make life much more difficult while (a) is being rectified.

Hopefully the issuing authorities can manage to avoid the farce with duplicate NI numbers that is rarely admitted to.

By the way, anyone hearing anything about India today ?

Does anyone remember Yes Minister and the proposed talk about a national database and Identity cards?