Westminstenders: Penny dropping time

[RedToothBrush]

Johnson already seems to be hinting at protections for workers rights and the environment that he promised are to be dropped.

Along with enshrining Brexit in law to the end of Dec 2020 thus creating another Brexit no deal date. This time without any safety net in parliament.

"won't Johnson be more liberal than he suggested" they cry

About that...

Despondent pmk

You know that plan to decriminalise not having a TV licence ? That some people are cheering and high-fiving each other about ?

I noticed a good point on a legal forum that it will increase the convictions for non-payment, as the burden of proof will now become balance of probabilities, rather than reasonable doubt.

OK, you won't get a criminal record. But you will get a fine backed with a CCJ to play with instead.

We're going to become a dumping ground for some quite unpleasant US products.
☹️

Wasn't there a huge outcry, years ago, about pharmaceutical companies having 3 standards for their products: 1st world, 2nd world, 3rd world?

People have no idea how much protection EU standards afford.

And how much protection is afforded by being part of a big trading bloc, rather than in vassalage to the US.

And discussion of next Labour Leader can now move to another thread:

About Labour's next leader www.mumsnet.com/Talk/politics/3767863-about-labour-s-next-leader

@ssd I think it's a bit patronising to say people didn't "realise" that Boris was part of the government that resulted in their current situation. From the analysis I've read it seems poorer communities have always voted labour and had labour MPs (despite a Tory government) and this has resulted in absolutely no change for them or improvement in their lives. Therefore, voting for change involved switching their vote. There's some good analysis in the weekend Times by Janice Turner. It's paywalls but you get 2 articles free.

@dkl55, not patronising in the least calling out folks stupidity.

This predates both the Indyref and the EU Referendum but could have been written yesterday - if anything, it is even more true today

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/scotland-isnt-different-its-britain-thats-bizarre/

@ssd , just like Emily Thornberry. Allegedly.
But seriously, this was the election about the least worst. There's a reason people thought Johnson was the least worst. And it was Corbyn. And Brexit. And being fed up of having their support taken for granted.

I am particularly worried about the page 48 agenda to circumscribe the power of the courts
I’ve seen some absolute nonsense talked (not on this thread) about the separation of powers - it seems most people simply do not understand, or do not want to understand, how vital an independent judiciary is.
How ironic it would be if Brexit - sold as “freedom" from the CJEU and a "return" of power to our own courts - actually ended up doing the opposite. Ironic but given the propensities of our dear leader perhaps not surprising.

Trying to stay positive but really I think its going to be no deal and then bend over to get fucked by the Americans.

Ragged trousered philanthropists and Upton Sinclair's The Jungle were the political eye-openers for me. If you haven't come across the latter Just I recommend it.

...and being called stupid for not voting what other people thought was good for them. I've been a bit shocked at how many of my friends & family - characterise the people they say they care about as stupid, scared, racist etc etc.

I'm unconvinced by the 'stupid' line.

But I get that people need to work through the grief of this.

I'm saying no more because of details the thread.

... because it derails the thread.

pmk

I'm not saying anyone is stupid for voting differently to me. I'm saying folk are being stupid to say they voted for change by re electing the government that's been in power for ten years. They may have changed the way they vote, granted, but they re elected the same old thing, surely they realise that.
Sorry to derail, will shut up now.

Really think the last few years should have taught you a valuable lesson in the consequences of calling people stupid.

So the oven ready Brexit turns out not to be so oven ready, since the recipe is now being changed. And the currency markets looks like total wankers: loud back to per-exit poll levels. Plus ça change ...

Anyway, the Brexit day being fixed in law is meaningless since that date is already in an agreement which overrides domestic law. It's just posturing. It can and probably will be changed.

I don't think anything has changed tbh. If he wants a quick deal it will either be maximum concessions to the EU (which certainly has some oven ready deals to offer ...) or maximum pain for industry.

Aargh autocorrect fail. Pound back to pre exit poll levels.

folk are being stupid to say they voted for change by re electing the government that's been in power for ten years

And now a quote fail.

I was going to comment on that quote to say that, objectively, claiming that you are voting for change by voting back the same people is a stupid argument.

I make no assumptions about the intelligence of the people making that argument, since the relatively educated membership of the Labour Party is about to make the same stupid mistake.

Poorly informed is probably a more useful term than stupid.

Any aviation nerds around ?

The Boeing 737 saga rumbles on (grounded since March and a lot of companies are losing a lot of money).

Anyway, here's a little gem that's popped out of the mire. Seems the Federal Aviation Authority - which is supposed to oversee aviation safety, also has another - slightly less trumpeted role ...

to promote the aviation industry

so you have a regulator that has a mandate to hide or obscure any faults in planes on the basis that disclosure and enforcement might not "promote the aviation industry".

Now factor that into your medical, and environmental agencies.

Well, sheesh, we'd like to have told you all about that medicine which kills it's patients. But that wouldn't be promoting the pharmaceutical industry.

www.theregister.co.uk/2019/12/17/737_max_halt/

Have we included the plan for a Department of Borders and Immigration?

I think we have ...

Anyway - populism.

Am expecting a lot of populism with this government.
Am not quite braced for the horror ...

Poorly informed is probably a more useful term than stupid.

That's not what is being said. Clever, well-informed people can make stupid arguments. Arguing that you are voting for change, while voting in the same government you've had for the last 10 years, is objectively not very clever - regardless of the level of intelligence or education of the person making the argument.

It will also be a stupid argument when the relatively well-educated Labour membership argues in favour of a new leader who is the same as the old leader.

I'm not sure what is the politically correct word for voting repeatedly for the same thing or person, and then being disappointed or surprised at the outcome. Rats do better than this if you put them in a maze.

Just had a revelation ... skimming through a thread grumbling about Amazon elsewhere, and a poster made quite a telling point that no amount of hectoring or lecturing (which tends to quickly enter any discussion where Amazon are involved) would persuade them to give up Amazon, as it's too darned convenient.

There's some sort of clue in there, with reference to recent events and how people put their arguments across. I don't know what the clue is. But I'm sure it's something worth looking into.