Westminstenders: Penny dropping time

[RedToothBrush]

Johnson already seems to be hinting at protections for workers rights and the environment that he promised are to be dropped.

Along with enshrining Brexit in law to the end of Dec 2020 thus creating another Brexit no deal date. This time without any safety net in parliament.

"won't Johnson be more liberal than he suggested" they cry

About that...

Thanks red

Thanks, red 💐

Westministenders' Abbreviations:

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eureferendumm2016/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation?msgid=84503730

I meant poorly informed on Brexit, "getting it done" and expecting positive outcomes for themselves and their community.

DGR That's part of why people keep voting for Thatcher.
However much harm we knew she was doing, she coincided with a consumer boom (partly North Sea oil).

There's a brilliant bit in 'The Rotter's Club' about a protagonist seeing his sister using a light, brightly coloured, plastic hair-dryer. The protagonist's firm makes durable, heavy, blah-coloured hair dryers. But they are value for money and built to last.
He goes in to see management to suggest changing and loses his job.

There is a mountain to climb when you try to get people to ditch 'convenient' for 'invisible long-term benefits'. Especially when those benefits are neither palpable nor may they accrue to you specifically.

no amount of hectoring or lecturing would persuade them to give up Amazon, as it's too darned convenient.

Reminds me of a Tory flatmate from our student days.I've mentioned it before on here. The rest of us who were all Green or leftish were challenging him on one of his regular trips out to get a MacDonalds. Between us, we came out with detailed health, rainforest, animal welfare etc arguments. He listened , shrugged his shoulders and went pout of the door grinning saying something like " you may all be right but I like it".

It was convenient.

Corbyn seeing results through his ideological tunnel, as usual:

Ashcroft's exit analysis

Labour lost too many of its 70% Remainers, more than lost from its 30% Leavers
and he was toxic to Tory Remainers

Also good stats here on the change in wc / mc support for both parties - which accelerated but has been happening for several decades

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/five-crucially-important-but-frequently-ignored-facts-about-the-2019-election-labour-conservatives-brexit-corbyn-johnson

The notion that Labour had a particularly tough time last week keeping its Leave voters is wrong.

Lord Ashcroft conducted an election-day survey of 13,000 people after they had voted.

This found that 64 per cent of 2017 Labour Leavers stayed loyal to their party

• and a virtually identical proportion of Conservative Remainers, 66 per cent, stayed loyal to theirs, despite the party fighting on an uncompromising platform of “Get Brexit done.”

These virtually identical loyalty rates suggest that Labour’s fence-sitting stance on Brexit did it little good;
but they do not explain why the Conservatives won the election.

Two significant differences were these:

• Just eight per cent of 2017 Conservative Leavers switched to another party this time.

The defection rate among Labour Remainers was twice as high: 16 per cent.

• Two-thirds of those Labour Leavers who did defect switched straight to the Tories. In contrast, fewer than one in four of defecting Tory Remainers voted Labour this time; most voted Lib Dem.

Contrary to what Corbyn has been saying since the election, Labour’s main Brexit-specific problem was its failure to retain the support of enough of its own Remainers

• and to attract the votes of enough of those Tory Remainers who were willing to defect. **

" you may all be right but I like it".

Sums up why I - and most other people - won't go vegan: I like meat too much

BCF

Sterling work on stats. 💐

No. It makes no difference to the hard Left in Labour because their contrary narrative is a.) comforting b.) protects them Corbyn project' and c.) permits for a purge if 'Blairite Remainer Centrists' who sabotaged victory.

It's a kind of madness.

Pmk

Sums up why I - and most other people - won't go vegan: I like meat too much

Well there's also the fact that as creatures of nature, humans are perfectly adapted to eat meat. In fact we can only accommodate the amount of non-meat we consume by the secret of our intelligence and cooking food. (And there's a fascinating debate to be had about whether it's the discovery of cooking that led to our intelligence ...).

Of course the vegan/veggie brigade have got a new stick with which to beat us, and that's the problem with farming enough meat on the planet we're limited too, for the size of population. Which does run the danger of backfiring, as people would rather have a hamburger than another billion people.

All of which needs to be read in the knowledge that historically, meat was much rarer in our diet - and we ate a hell of a lot of things we now (think) we happily throw away.

DW was saying only yesterday we've not had a liver & bacon casserole for a while.

I meant poorly informed on Brexit, "getting it done" and expecting positive outcomes for themselves and their community.

No one is well informed on Brexit now. Zero visibility even for the supposedly well informed - just look at how currencies traders got taken for a ride by hedgies in the last few days. In my industry you'd call this "market abuse", but no one with government connections will ever get prosecuted for it.

Thecat Now is the time for all-out assault by the Labour moderates like you

There is at least 5 years, probably 10, to take back Labour
before winning becomes feasible under anyone

So it's not as if a bloody civil war would prevent some magical victory

Trying to grab the steering wheel before - as bear & co were demanding - during a GE when the coach is doing 70 mph down the motorway would just have worsened the danger

Now the couch has pulled over to a service station, it's time to pull the half-blind unlicenced driver out of the seat and sit on him,
while a driver with all their faculties - and a licence - is chosen.

@bellinisurge, no it hasn't. If I think someone us being stupid I'll say so. If you think I'm being stupid and say so, that's fine by me. The day we're all worried about speaking our minds is the day I give up. A valuable lesson I've learned is the need to look out for each other. Not stopping being honest and having an opinion.

The problem is not that voters weren't well-informed about Brexit

• it's not their responsibility to keep informed about horrendously complex & specialist issues

The real hammer is that the politicians were so badly informed before the ref and during most of the negotiations
The ridiculous claims of DD, Raab, IDS ... and BJ, who seem to believe their own fantasies

• and convinced voters of them

imo, the penny dropped some time ago for Gove and for many others in his party who are still able to think outside their ideological tunnel

However, they can't possibly admit such a dreadful mistake,
so they'll plough on, try to reduce the damage
and throw a ton of dead squirrels on the table, to distract enough voters from realising who screwed the pooch

e.g. there is a China-US trade war, global recession coming, wars everywhere about religion or water, many countries will be hit anyway

Easy to claim it's not their fault, not because of Brexit

I am oddly relaxed about the whole debacle now. Johnson will fuck us over: it's just a question of the flavour and duration. But as the country voted for it, they should be happy with the consequences.

PMK.
I don't see anything good happening for the next decade in England but people did get a chance to vote and they chose this.

Exactly my view TheABC

I've been trying to pretend that none of this is happening - but now am getting drawn back in again ...

When will we find out if it's going to be a No Deal? Will it be at the January deadline coming up?

The flavour and duration will affect people massively, differently, individually. It's quite insensitive, I think, to relay that one is 'relaxed' about the consequences.

Just realised other thread was full, wanted to say I completely agree with Cat on incompetence of Labour. I despair.

The no deal will be when it is realised that a trade deal is not possible before December next year. IF Johnson does an extension ( though he promised not to...) then it would be avoided.

Day One and let the grandstanding nonsense begin: Pass a law that makes it illegal to break the law, etc.

If parliament wants to vote for an extension, it votes for an extension. If there's a law that says they can't, they vote to repeal it.

I don't think we will find out Dusty, much before it happens. If it does. My Dh is still "but they won't do that, because it would be so damaging for them to deal with". I, on the other hand, think everything will be much worse than we can imagine.

We make the mistake of limiting our thinking of how others behave by our own standards.

The no deal will be when it is realised that a trade deal is not possible before December next year.

That makes sense. Thank you. But is maddening. Of course nobody wants a no deal - but all the waiting it painful. All the guessing and all the lying.

I think I will have to keep my head down again. Nothing we do will change any of this. We are all powerless.