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Brexit
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Westminstenders: Penny dropping time

935 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2019 08:12

Johnson already seems to be hinting at protections for workers rights and the environment that he promised are to be dropped.

Along with enshrining Brexit in law to the end of Dec 2020 thus creating another Brexit no deal date. This time without any safety net in parliament.

"won't Johnson be more liberal than he suggested" they cry

About that...

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JustAnotherPoster00 · 18/12/2019 16:03

noone is actually suggesting bringing back Blair himself

I fucking hope not Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 18/12/2019 16:04

In the US, class is nearly all about wealth

In the UK, it is about birth
You can be uc and still need a bursary to afford Eton

DGRossetti · 18/12/2019 16:05

Yep, it’s perhaps a wealth thing rather than a class thing, but it’s definitely there

From what I've seen, heard and read (and what DB reports), it's way more involved than that ... you have "old money" families - especially in New England (think the Kennedys) who are as close to royalty as you can get (apparently).

The greatest trick the devil played was convincing the world he didn't exists. Maybe the greatest trick the US played on the world is to pretend class doesn't exist or matter ?

GlassOfPort · 18/12/2019 16:06

I have just joined Labour and am quite warming to Starmer's let's not ditch the baby (anti-austerity policies) with the hot water (JC) message.

Interestingly, the Labour web site still asks the "why are you joining" question, but "to support Jeremy Corbyn" is no longer one of the answers on offer.. Still plenty of pictures of Jezza on the home page...I am wondering if these are going to go soon as well..

JustAnotherPoster00 · 18/12/2019 16:07

Maybe the greatest trick the US played on the world is to pretend class doesn't exist or matter ?

They managed to hide it in the 'meritocracy' narrative

tobee · 18/12/2019 16:13

By the way, those speculating about getting Mandelson back, isn't he a bit long in the tooth now? Don't they need someone a bit more likely to know the latest tricks? Have an uptapped enthusiasm?

BigChocFrenzy · 18/12/2019 16:13

The EP has been kept informed of the negotiations - Barnier keeping Verhofstadt as their rep in the loop -
and has said repeatedly it will protect EU citizens rights, also UK expats rights as far as possible

The heads of govt set the terms of Barnier's negotiating mandate, but the WA must pass the EP as well, so they have a veto

The WA terms for E27 expats are just enough to satisfy the EP
and iirc for several years their rights will be protected by the ECJ

Any late attempt by BJ to weaken this is unlikely - just some playing to the gallery - but would cause a veto

tobee · 18/12/2019 16:14

*untapped

DGRossetti · 18/12/2019 16:15

Does Hatie Katie mean Warsi should fuck off out of the Tory party, or out of politics, or back "home" (which is Yorkshire !)

It's hard to tell - bile does make pronunciation hard I guess. Let's wait and see if HatieKatie (doncha love English at times Grin) decides to append some form of "...and your lot..." to the imperative ?

Alsohuman · 18/12/2019 16:24

Mandelson is the same age as me and I reckon his enthusiasm still burns pretty bright. He managed to get the msm onside for Blair, I’m pretty sure he could do it again for a decent leader with wide appeal, especially with Johnson/Cummings’ own goal of boycotting the BBC. With the right team with knowledge of social media arts, I can’t see him as anything but an asset.

CrissmussMockers · 18/12/2019 16:33

Oh boy do they have class in the states, but it means different things. It's about where you live and where you go to school, which means university.

And Middle-Class is anyone who works in a regular job.

See also Australia, where they make such a big thing about not being stuk-up like Poms, but have even more of their kids in private school than the UK.

tobee · 18/12/2019 16:36

I wasn't mean age Also. Grin

Just thought Labour could do with someone less known, more back room type.

Milne seems to have been spectacularly useless.

Probably too much of an ideologue

MarshaBradyo · 18/12/2019 16:37

Australia is no where near as class based as U.K. People do like to ask where you went to school and university but the lack of accent range means it’s much smaller fry.

Stinkyeddie · 18/12/2019 16:40

...

DGRossetti · 18/12/2019 16:43

The WA terms for E27 expats are just enough to satisfy the EP and iirc for several years their rights will be protected by the ECJ

How does that square with Boris wheeze to allow lower courts to get in on the act ? If nothing else, it's hard to avoid a feeling that (as ever) going to court will be a rich mans game. (Pronoun use very deliberate).

Songsofexperience · 18/12/2019 16:45

Milne seems to have been spectacularly useless.

Perhaps paranoid but I wouldn't be surprised if in fact his performance pleased certain people in the East...

DGRossetti · 18/12/2019 16:45

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50836164

Outgoing Supreme Court President Lady Hale has warned against politicians choosing the UK's top judges in a speech marking her retirement.

(contd)

CrissmussMockers · 18/12/2019 16:50

Australians make a big show of being classless, but opportunity is as restricted by the old school tie and old boy network as the UK.

MarshaBradyo · 18/12/2019 16:52

I don’t think it’s comparable. I would t say classless but the U.K. range from top to bottom is huge and everyone can place you within a minute.

Anyway Australia has a different issue so it’s not all roses.

MarshaBradyo · 18/12/2019 16:52

Wouldn’t say classless

Tanith · 18/12/2019 16:53

“ Maybe the greatest trick the US played on the world is to pretend class doesn't exist or matter ?”

Anyone reading To Kill A Mockingbird is left in no doubt about the US class system, in the South at any rate.

tobee · 18/12/2019 16:54

I find the Milne links to Russia and Cummings's links to Russia fascinating.

Especially as plenty of Tories still look at Russians as commies in Cold War stylie

CrissmussMockers · 18/12/2019 16:55

Much more equality of opportunity in NZ, where they have Scandinavian levels of female appointments to top jobs. It's a population size thing. They just don't have enough people to pick and choose.

DGRossetti · 18/12/2019 17:06

Anyone reading To Kill A Mockingbird is left in no doubt about the US class system, in the South at any rate.

I know Reg. D. Hunter is a bit marmite (great fan personally), but his observation that the UK class system is light years ahead of US racism, as it allows you to discriminate against people that look like you do is an example of many a true word being spoken in jest.

If I was still doing powerful class-A drugs (it's what I call "Self styled" Grin) I'd suspect the internet is following me today. Be that as it may, there's another thread on MN about QI with a lot of love for Sandi Toskvig, who once had to explain that she suffered from "Posh voice, no money" syndrome, when a guest on QI assumed she was loaded from her voice. (She's said she modelling it on Celia Johnson[1] after being bullied in New York for her accent - so much for classlessness ....)

[1]See what I mean - dogged by synchronicities everywhere Grin !

Piggywaspushed · 18/12/2019 17:22

There is a class system in the US and also a North v South snobbery. My family are form New England so consider themselves quite superior. Manhattan has whole new levels of class.

The South has entrenched attitudes about class, money, heritage and race cf Streetcar Named Desire and anyone who has watched Frasier knows the US is not classless!

I actually think (even though there are exceptions and there are independent schools) Scotland is less stratified than England or the US in some ways. That's not to say to doesn't have plenty of divisions!