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Brexit

Westminstenders: Election Special 3

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/12/2019 09:43

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DustyDiamond · 14/12/2019 15:01

I hope those working class/poor that voted really feel the pips getting squeaked, its a pain I will feel right along with them but fuck them they neither deserve or will get an ounce of compassion out of me.

Why did Corbyn's labour lose so badly?
See above.

Paraphrased:
I only give a fuck about the poor-bots who do as they're told like good pets
Fuck the ones who dare to use their vote in a way of their own choosing!

You want the support of the working classes?
Don't treat them like cunts.
Simple.

ClashCityRocker · 14/12/2019 15:07

Who are the working class nowadays anyway?

Not meant to be goady, BTW. But what are the criteria?

In my experience (and of course this is pure anecdata) it is those who are just above the cusp for benefits who are most resentful of the benefit system.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 14/12/2019 15:07

Piggy
Remoaners applies to Tory remainers too. Which highlights one of the issues in this election.

You are slightly missing the point I was making. It’s not that there should be no political banter but that Momentum turned the campaign into such an aggressive echo chamber that there was no debate. People wouldn’t say they were Tory supporters because of the level of aggression in some of the posts, Labour people who were concerned about Momentum got shut down. If someone calls me a capitalist bastard for being a Tory, I’ll take it on the chin, but, if someone calls me a cunt who wants babies to die, then any possibility of a discussion is over.

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2019 15:08

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

That will be the same Rowntree Foundation that reported last year:

Yet despite record employment rates in the UK, the number of people trapped in poverty in working families has risen by over one million in the three years to 2016/17. This means almost three million children are now locked in poverty despite living in a working family

www.jrf.org.uk/report/budget-2018-tackling-rising-tide-work-poverty

Around 300,000 more people are now in poverty compared to last year, according to the Households Below Average Income figures for 2016/17 published today by the Department of Work and Pensions.

Almost half of children in lone parent households are now in poverty, the fourth successive increase and a jump of eight per cent over four years. Reductions in benefits and tax credits since 2015 mean that many households are also losing their anchor to prevent them from being pulled further into a current of poverty.

www.jrf.org.uk/press/working-families-still-locked-poverty-time-right-wrong-work-poverty

The same IFS predicted in 2017 that the number of children living in poverty will increase by more than a million to a record 5.2 million over the next 5 years as government welfare cuts(freezing benefits, UC introduced + increased tax credits) reversing all the progress made over the past 20 years.

In 2018 the head of Oxfam’s UK programme (Justin Watson) reported in 2018:

There are now more people in poverty in the UK than there have been for almost 20 years and a million more than at the beginning of the decade.

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2019 15:09

Oh and yes ESA and PIP are not fit for purpose. But no system will ever function fairly and effectively so long as the main aim is to deny as many benefits as possible.

HarePark · 14/12/2019 15:09

You want the support of the working classes? Don't treat them like cunts. Simple.

Like Boris Johnson you mean? He doesn't treat the working classes like cunts?

Not only does he treat them like cunts, with his moronic cuntish slogans, he's on record stating that what a bunch of cunts he thinks they are.

So it isn't 'simple' and simplistic shit like that isn't going to cut it.

Piggywaspushed · 14/12/2019 15:11

I don't think I was missing the point. You are suggesting the name calling only went one way. That is not what I have seen.

I agree it is ridiculous hyperbole and offensive to call you - or anyone - those things. But it really is coming form a very small number of posters and -genuinely- is cutting both ways.

I never saw the murderers posts but I did think it was on this thread (so shrieking in despair into the echo chamber as it were) and not someone visiting other threads and shouting it at a specific poster. I may be wrong.

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2019 15:12

You want the support of the working classes?
Don't treat them like cunts.

But the Tories have treated them like cunts (just as they treat everyone) they just haven’t figured it out yet. At the moment they’re still in thrall to Tory lies.

BeardedMum · 14/12/2019 15:12

I agree. No one treats the working class and the poor like cunts as much as the Tories. They must be laughing all the way to the bank every day.

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2019 15:13

Not only does he treat them like cunts, with his moronic cuntish slogans, he's on record stating that what a bunch of cunts he thinks they are.

Ah but unicorns...

MarshaBradyo · 14/12/2019 15:20

Yep laughing to the bank because Labour are so bad at understanding what to do.

MarshaBradyo · 14/12/2019 15:22

And still laughing because Labour won’t change even in the face of huge defeat.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 14/12/2019 15:22

Piggy
It wasn’t my intention to suggest the name calling went one way. It didn’t. I was focusing on the extreme nature of some of the vitriol spouted. There was a thread yesterday that MNHQ had to delete because it was so nasty- it was actually started by an ex Labour member criticising Momentum but lots of posters assumed she was Tory.

This is not the party politics I want to see in this country. We need factual debate where people can disagree without a torrent of abuse. Momentum hijacked the tone of the Labour campaign which meant the voices of ordinary Labour supporters were drowned out. That was a bad thing for all parties.

Piggywaspushed · 14/12/2019 15:24

Well, sorry to tell you that's how it came across.

In the interest of balance, I should tell you a thread started which offered a 'quiet corner' for people to share sadness was repeatedly interrupted by four or so very venomous posters, mainly calling people 'fucking idiots' Momentum didn't cause that. Nastiness exists everywhere.

We haven't quite got to Trumpian proportions yet.

SwedishEdith · 14/12/2019 15:25

I'm thinking that Cummings is like the Narodniks as well. He thinks he knows best for the white working class but despises them. He hasn't asked them about his tear it all down obsession because this wouldn't fit with a welfare state. He patronises them as sees them as unable to understand complex arguments and language and only believes they can understand 3 word slogans. In fact, seeing "them" and "they" as a homogenous mass is itself patronising. Many of my ex-mining stock family did not vote Tory.

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2019 15:36

This is not the party politics I want to see in this country. We need factual debate where people can disagree without a torrent of abuse.

If that’s what you wanted, what you’ve got is a PM who likened Muslim women to letterboxes, and indulged all manner of racial abuse in his journalism.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 14/12/2019 15:52

In that article Boris was stating Denmark was wrong to ban the burka and that women should be free to wear it if they want.
(My MIL wore the Haik)

I don’t particularly like Boris but given he married a British Asian I do wonder just how racist he is.

Peregrina · 14/12/2019 15:59

Johnson has got some hostages to fortune - the 50,000 nurses are one. This is a virtually impossible target, but as well as retaining the 15,000 in post, he will need at least another 5,000 to 10,000.

Then 'Get Brexit done'. Hard Brexit and he smashes the economy. Softer Brexit - won't suite the ERG who are still pulling his strings.

If he comes a cropper I will shed no more tears for him than I do for Farage.

MockersFactCheckMN · 14/12/2019 16:12

Who are the working class nowadays anyway?

Good point. It's more a question of largely closed communities rather than individuals. It's homongenous towns rather than cosmopolitan big cities, post-industrial communties that depended on one now dead or dying industry but also places like Peterborough where they do a bit of everything. Can be quite ethnically mixed, like in Pboro where the Pakistanis complain without a trace of irony about the East Europeans coming over here, etc. Few graduates, almost none amongst the elders. They view the welfare state as their birthright because of generations of paying in and resent incomers getting it from Day One, a strong British sense of waiting your turn and fairness, the apoplectic rage over Polish mums sending child benefit home, which has zero impact macroeconomically, but it's not fair.

The kids may be able to head off to the big city and persue opportunities but the parents are stuck where they are and have an expectation that the opportunities ought to be brought to them when they can't afford to move anywhere else.

And yes, a bit xenophobic. It's emotion-driven. The arguments are cobbled together post-facto to justify the rage and often make no sense. You can point out that immigrants are net taxpayers and take out less than they pay in, you can try the Corbyn line that it's not the immigrants' fault there are no houses, full classrooms and endless waits to see the doctor. All this is true. But it's not the point. These people feel neglected and taken for granted, and a Labour Party with fewer senior figures that sound like them alienates them. An accent like Wrong-Daily isn't enough. Jess Phillips, I bloody love Jess Phillips, is proper working class. As the people's poet laureate Paul Heaton once wrote: Too many Florence Nightingales, not enough Robin Hoods.

ListeningQuietly · 14/12/2019 16:12

I don’t particularly like Boris but given he married a British Asian I do wonder just how racist he is.
Boris is a journalist
he will write whatever gets him paid
I do not think he is racist
I know he is sexist
I also know that many more people now realise he is not clever

Piggywaspushed · 14/12/2019 16:17

mockers , I have never thought of Peterborough as a working class place. Or not a place that epitomizes working class
Stevenage, perhaps.

To me , the Valleys are 'typical' of what you describe.And they mainly voted Labour, albeit with a dash of Brexit. The places in England and Wales that are working class dud not all turn Tory. That's more media representation.

DustyDiamond · 14/12/2019 16:21

Jess Phillips, I bloody love Jess Phillips, is proper working class

😂😂

She's really not!

Alsohuman · 14/12/2019 16:32

Jess Phillips, much as I love her, couldn’t be more middle class.

MockersFactCheckMN · 14/12/2019 16:33

...Jess gets it. Don't care about her background.

Peterborough is the polar opposite of Cambridge. It is the largest place in the UK, maybe in Western Europe, not to have a university.

SwedishEdith · 14/12/2019 16:41

Welcome to University Centre Peterborough

In 2008, we started a joint venture with Peterborough Regional College to create University Centre Peterborough (UCP). It's a £10 million facility that offers a broad portfolio of degree courses.

aru.ac.uk/student-life/life-on-campus/university-centre-peterborough