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Brexit

Westminstenders: Election Special 3

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/12/2019 09:43

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chomalungma · 14/12/2019 13:49

e will have to hope that Johnson makes a complete mess of Brexit. They realise that Johnson doesn't respect them either. Where will that leave them thou

I don't really want that happen - I hope that those people who voted for change actually get something decent happen - and don't suffer the consequences.

I don't want a Conservative Government or Brexit - but I do think that those areas that voted Leave because of being 'left behind' - do need to see something positive happen in their communities.

MarshaBradyo · 14/12/2019 13:49

Mockers good post.

Tanith · 14/12/2019 13:51

Of course, deliberately insulting over half the population really wasn't a good idea:

fairplayforwomen.com/pcc/?fbclid=IwAR3b2cGfrIPmqy8mWIfMpqGuqoKpjLN_xDe7s316WtP6jsXKLpkuwTtAlg0

thecatfromjapan · 14/12/2019 13:53

Much truth in that, Mockers.

NewspaperTaxis · 14/12/2019 13:54

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but perhaps I can remind everyone that County Council elections take place on 7 May next year?

And unlike the General Election, neither issues of Brexit or Corbyn will be a factor here...
So I'm not saying it will be a wipeout along the lines of the borough elections earlier this year. But we shall see...

derxa · 14/12/2019 13:54

Also, as the euphoria wears off, it's worth reminding the Toryistas that for all his backing of Boris, Dominic Cummings is not a Tory and could just as well use this solid majority platform to finally burn the old guard to the ground so his New World Order can rise from it. If that happens, please don't go "My God ! How could we have known that would happen ?" as it's hardly been kept a secret. Yes but please explain in words of one/two syllables what this New World Order actually means. What's in it for him?

MockersFactCheckMN · 14/12/2019 13:55

Never forget: The Left are Stupid. The Right are Evil.

thecatfromjapan · 14/12/2019 13:56

Labour lost Rother Valley. The candidate there didn't exactly put herself out to reach out to non-woke women.

thecatfromjapan · 14/12/2019 13:57

And I don't just mean gender critical stuff there.

There are a range of views amongst women on many issues central to us. I honestly think communication is important.

Peregrina · 14/12/2019 14:00

I hope that those people who voted for change actually get something decent happen

Realistically, can you see that happening? Johnson is making noises now, and 'one nation' was obviously the party line, because the winning Henley MP trotted it out - but how they rebuild one nation, I cannot see.

The Henley MP also made noises about tackling Climate Change - to jeers from those assembled.

MockersFactCheckMN · 14/12/2019 14:02

This is a lot like when the Eastenders put the BNP in charge of Barking Council. They were sending a message to Labour: You SEE? You didn't listen to our concerns and so we have to do this to get your attention. Now LISTEN to us.

MockersFactCheckMN · 14/12/2019 14:04

And for anyone who knows their Russian history, thise that don't can go to Wiki, Momentum are Narodniks, and they will go the same way.

Peregrina · 14/12/2019 14:05

Then what happened Mockers?

I know that UKIP had a whole swathe of Councillors at one stage. The vast majority of them made a mess and duly got chucked out at the next election. One or two knuckled down and became councillors who genuinely tried to work for their electorate.

TatianaLarina · 14/12/2019 14:09

I have posted information on other threads from Full Fact that shows poverty levels haven’t changed in the last 20 years, so no party has done a great job.

Which is just by way of a denial of the impact of the changes to benefits and social care since 2010. The rise of sanctions, the rise of food banks etc.

PFI was a loony idea inherited from the Major government. Harman and Alastair Darling in particular rightly warned against it.

But in a country that wants a free NHS but doesn’t want to pay the taxes to cover it - governments are left trying to pull rabbits out of hats. It’s the political equivalent of turning to a loan shark.

But you’re right we will never agree.

MockersFactCheckMN · 14/12/2019 14:13

Not a lot happened. Margaret Hodge was one local MP that went in and listened, but it's not easy. So many well-meaning middle-class lefties approach working-class people like Victorian missionaries in Africa, the arrogant arseholes. You cannot communicate with the working-class if you do not understand what they are really saying when they say things that on a surface rational level make no sense. The frequent refrain that "They (immigrants) get everything and we get nothing" is so obviously false, but it doesn't mean what it appears to say on a superficial level. It is a cry for help.

You need to come from a loud and disputatious working-class family (is there any other kind?) to get it. You can start to understand it by reading your Richard Hoggart, Raymond Williams and Stuart Hall, but you'll never really get it unless you come from it or like Clem Attlee in the Stepney Boys Clubs, you immerse yourself in it.

Now sing the Momentum Song:

TheMustressMhor · 14/12/2019 14:13

DGR

Actually I remember 1992 very well. I was angry then, not tearful.

This time round I am beginning to face old age, and my DC are grown up and will have to deal with me and DH as "elderly parents" - whilst caring for their own DC.

But I take your point.

Sickofrain · 14/12/2019 14:18

Come on Tatiana, you disagree with her on political choice. Unless there is a massive backstory, it's really not worth falling out with close family for!

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 14/12/2019 14:21

Tatiana
The poverty information comes from the non-partisan Social Metrics Commission. Commissioners include academics, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and the IFS.

There does need to be a proper discussion about tackling poverty.

There is no excuse for benefit delays (one of our tenants applied for Housing Benefit and it took 10 months for the council to process it. We could have evicted them under s8 and the same bloody council would have found them intentionally homeless). Luckily we were in a position where we could wait it out.

Is the concept of PIP wrong or the way it is administered? I wouldn’t argue with anyone who said that the assessment process is clearly not fit for purpose right now.

Tanith · 14/12/2019 14:30

There also needs to be a reform of the electoral system, but I doubt there'll be a fair crack at that when the current system suits the Conservatives so well. They still got less than half the population voting for them, yet won a disproportionate number of seats:

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/westminsters-voting-system-is-bankrupt-its-time-for-proportional-representation/

BestIsWest · 14/12/2019 14:32

I cried in 92 and I cried in 97 (tears of joy). I cried tears of relief that my Labour MP was re elected this time round but am resolute that I will not shed tears over Johnson but will take some form of positive action. I don’t know yet what form that will take.

Peregrina · 14/12/2019 14:33

I would suspect that quite a number of things are not wrong in themselves.

We now have generation rent, for whom home ownership is out of reach - but as BigChoc points out, in Germany it's perfectly possible to have a well established fair rental system, so that renting isn't a problem.

Similarly the NHS might be moved to an insurance based system. We don't have to do it the American way - Germany and the Netherlands have insurance bases systems which seem to be well run and work more fairly.

Piggywaspushed · 14/12/2019 14:36

Has it occurred to us that no one called us murderers because we aren't going to kill anyone with left wing policies.

Other names are available : I have seen on other threads plenty of posters being called 'lefties' , 'loonies' , 'remoaners' , 'jocks', - oh and 'terrorist sympathisers' and 'unicorn chasers'.

Did anyone actually see Boris in 'the North'. He is very paternalistic which, for some unfathomable reason, plays well. Lots of call and response. He did mess up the bit about nurses, though! He said how many new - ummm- I mean more -umm- nurses?' . '50000!' they all cry. It made me shout at the telly. I am afraid I may have called them names.

Then a Jehovah's Witness came to the door and asked my DS what the answer to all questions was. I nearly said Brexit.

ListeningQuietly · 14/12/2019 14:41

A neighbour told me he'd looking to February 1st when Brexit will be done and dusted Confused

Johnson has a big enough majority that he can legislate pretty much whatever he likes.
We just have to hope that Corbyn throws a sickie for the next few months so that the opposition front bench has some good speakers who can challenge what will happen.

SwedishEdith · 14/12/2019 14:46

You need to come from a loud and disputatious working-class family (is there any other kind?) to get it.

That's true to a point. And reflects my parents' background. But, it loses its impact when future generations become educated and move out of being working class unless they move into public sector professions.

Interesting reading about the Narodniks (hadn't heard of them - thanks). But don't most progressive movements need to come from, or be facilitated by, an intellectual class - the suffragettes, Jarrow March? The "don't patronise and just reflect what they (the "white working class") want" stance of Caroline Flint, Melanie Onn and Laura Smith hasn't worked for them (the MPs).

This is interesting from wiki:

Feminism in the Narodnik movement was also hard for the peasantry to accept. Pre-Marxist revolutionaries believed in an unusually strong equality of sex, and educated noblewomen played major roles in radical movements in the latter decades of the nineteenth century. Russian revolutionary literature in the 1840s and 1850s linked the causes of emancipation of serfs with the emancipation of the Russian woman—this literature was manifest in the Narodnik movement. The Narodniks promulgated Chernyshevskyan ideas of chaste cohabitation—that men and women should live together with no sexual interactions—and gender equality. These concepts were extremely odd to most peasants, and they did not generally react well to them. Furthermore, Narodniks often lived in communes where non-married men and women slept and lived in the same rooms. To Orthodox Russian peasants in the 1870s, such disregard of gender norms were both offensive and off-putting. When you consider the fact that nearly 60% of Narodnik women were from wealthy classes it becomes clear why the Russian peasant could not relate to most intellectuals in the movement intellectually, economically or socially.[17] Historian Dmitri Pisarev writes that “sensing their inability to act alone, the intelligent radical made the peasantry the instrument to realize their hopes.” The peasants did not readily welcome being a vessel for the revolutionaries. The Narodniks believed that the peasants were the class in Russia most prone to revolution, yet the peasants were not ready for revolutionary action.[18]

Tanith · 14/12/2019 14:58

Piggywaspushed: "Then a Jehovah's Witness came to the door and asked my DS what the answer to all questions was. I nearly said Brexit."

GrinGrin