Westminstenders: Frozen

[RedToothBrush]

Boris Johnson was empty chaired by C4 with a block of ice.

The Conservatives went mental and have threatened to look at C4 broadcast remit.

This is illiberal and anti democratic.

Journalists are supposed to hold power to account on behalf of the public. If MPs don't turn up then they can't be held to account.

They have a duty to show. It's not good enough to avoid scrutiny because it might make you look bad. That's the whole point.

The contempt with which Johnson holds the press and public is reprehensible and you should be concerned whatever your political alligence. It allows corruption to fester without consequence.

And to then threaten C4 because they do their job in line with their responsibility as a broadcaster is alarming.

This is how authoritarian dictators work.

Why automatically assume the police were in the wrong ?

Not automatically assuming anything. Simply asking questions.

Are you 100% sure that in a high stress, chaotic situation, police could never make a mistake, or the wrong person could be identified the media in parenthesis? Really?

It’s this kind of naive uncritical faith in police and justice system that leads to the slavish following of the Tories down a hard right incline.

Have the Tories ever proved themselves to more reliable on security and defence? They cut the police force to the bone.

Menezes was murdered by Cressida Dick and others.

This guy got what he wanted and what he deserved.

And now we need a conversation about tick-box parole and automatic release.

My policy as a distant observer is to wait for the facts , rather than to jump in and immediately allege the police got it wrong whether over shooting him or his ID

Your policy is to accept uncritically what is reported in the media without analysis.

I have never alleged the police have got it wrong if you read my posts. I simply asked questions.

If we learn later there were any mistakes, then that is the time for criticism, if justified and to develop measures to avoid them being repeated

Very much this

There is always an investigation after a shooting & this is when all the decision making & subsequent action will be scrutinised

As someone who has been armed before & been subject to the rules of engagement (although never in a situation where I had to apply it thankfully), I can honestly say that from all the footage I saw of yesterday I would have made the exact same decision in those exact circumstances

I’ve seen the footage too, as have many, I think there are major question marks.

Thank you Westministenders for the thoughtful analysis on these threads.
Watching the rise of populism in this country, I am reminded of an article published just after Trump was elected...www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did/
Interesting discussion of the "victim" narrative at the heart of all such movements, one which I have often felt is demonstrated on other threads on MN.

A serious discussion has to take place about how Tory led 'austerity' cuts led to seriously underfunded prison and probation services.

I'm not saying I'm certain the police actions were 100% right, just that I'm not prepared to allege anything until I get the facts

Look at the ratings on the issues
The Tories get much higher marks on security matters than Opposition parties because they are seen to 100% support the police verbally, until it is absolutely proved the police did wrong (and sometimes even after that)

This liberal bleeding heart agonising and equivocating repels most voters, who are not going to look at budgets
They will reject any politicians or party they think aren't 100% focused on protecting them
Hardly any voters give a toss whether the police should have waited 0.7 seconds more before shooting a violent terrorist

Sometimes it really is about values and even public impressions, not money
Particularly with so much Tory spin about new money

Until Opposition parties "get" this, the public will cling to the Tories when they feel unsafe

Until Opposition parties "get" this, the public will cling to the Tories when they feel unsafe

Not sure how safe they feel knowing the Tories cut 20,000 police officers

Your "question" aren't questions; they are allegations
And on insufficient evidence

I'm not a neutral party between terrorists and police
So until the facts are in, I won't make allegations or criticisms

No wonder voters don't trust the liberal left on security
and probably won't trust them with power
I hope canvassers are not indulging in any bleeding heart agonising if asked about this terrorist attack
Voters right now just want to hear support for the police and security forces

Once he was held the police can hold him down securely. They were standing right over him when they shot him according to the photos.

There is a video of the shooting which was shared by one of the journos I follow on twitter and which I saw before I knew what I was watching

The man was shot from a distance of about 2-3 metres after the officer pulled a civilian clear.

I'm not prepared to criticise what that policeman did until we know exactly what happened.

I’ve not alleged anything as I have said, I have simply asked questions.

Whatever the tabloids say, and whatever is popularly believed, the Tories are no more effective on security and policing than Labour. They get higher marks as they are believed to be more authoritarian. Verbal support for the police is windowdressing when police numbers have been hacked and the Tories have overseen a dramatic rise in murders in London and some major terrorist incidents.

Your "question" aren't questions; they are allegations And on insufficient evidence

Again, there are no allegations, only questions.

Well I have to say the first that came to my mind was: wtf?

Seeing that guy was held down, that police officer needs to have had some pretty good reasons to still have fired at the guy.

poster After an attack, showing unequivocal support for the actions of police and security forces should be priority number 1 for all parties

The public won't give a fuck about hearing of 20,000 cut unless they are first convinced that the person telling them this is 100% behind the police
and that their party focuses first on protecting the public,
not making unfounded allegations against the police

Look at the ratings of the parties on the different issues
and ask yourself why the Tories rate so much higher on security, despite the cuts

CanIHaveADrink would you count the terrorist reaching to trigger his bomb vest a good reason?
(As per witness interviews)

I’d also like to see why the police has been able to determine it was a terrorist incident so quickly.
Did they have those information about that man before hand?

One issue I have with terrorism is that more or less every single incident is blamed on terrorist unless it is Obvioulsy not the case. There has been other cases where I doubted the labelling too. I do here because if the speed at which they have been able to say do, Aka no time at all to carry any proper investigation.

poster After an attack, showing unequivocal support for the actions of police and security forces should be priority number 1 for all parties

Wont get any argument from me on that

@CanIHaveADrink

Quite.

Oh bloody hell CanIHaveADrink yes he was a convicted terrorist, out in license, wearing a tag. Would be a bit bloody daft of them to blame it on anything else

poster After an attack, showing unequivocal support for the actions of police and security forces should be priority number 1 for all parties

Support yes. Unequivocal support or not asking questions or not being critical No.
Police officers are humans too. Sometimes , they make mistakes. Sometimes they are heroes that have managed to take that split second decision that is saving lives. I am not going to assume they are whiter than snow if there are some possible doubts they aren’t (but agree that what should happen is an inquest an proper investigation rather than a wild guess)

Did they have those information about that man before hand?

The guy was wearing a tag because he was out of prison on licence after serving a sentence for terrorist offences.

Always nice to hear new voices on this thread.

Menezes was murdered by Cressida Dick and others.

The bit people forget (or never knew) is that as far as that incident goes, nobody did anything wrong. Which means it will happen again.

I'm of an age to know the name "Stephen Waldorf" - another completely innocent man who ended up full of police bullets.

Also remember the train driver of the train JCdM was murdered on came within milliseconds of losing his head too.

And while we're on early doors reporting, it's also worth noting that despite JCdM not wearing a jacket, nor vaulting the barriers, most people who can remember the name will think he did, thanks to a loudmouth "witness" who was on TV before the smoke had cleared. And I have never shaken the suspicion he was planted to do exactly what he did, which was provide a bollocks public "memory" for when the Mr. Beans holiday nature of the execution came out.