What is going to be better on the ‘other side’?

[Bearbehind]

I’ve long since accepted that Brexit is happening.

But what is going to be better once we’ve left?

What is the everyday Joe going to notice that improves their life?

The fact Cameron threw in the towel is a different question, my point is that voters had a reasonable expectation that it was a once in a lifetime vote that would be implemented, in answer to the earlier question about how it is different to a GE.
And it was taken back to parliament who voted overwhelmingly to invoke A50.

You appear to be arguing against yourself there Megan. So despite it not being in Cameron's gift to implement the result, which he promised to do, May picked up the baton, and then Parliament voted to invoke A50.

So why haven't they implemented the result then?

I think we all know the answer to that peregrina! In any case that is quite separate to the issue of why Leave have a reasonable expectation that it would be implemented.

The only answer I can give is that they don't know what to implement. Whether that is the same answer as yours is anyone's guess.

There were 17 million versions of Leave, some of which mutually contradictory, and many absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

Are you arguing that if leave is poorly defined, the leave vote does not need to be respected? I don’t think it being poorly defined is why it has not been implemented but that’s a different topic. I wouldn’t dismiss that being poorly defined does cause some ambiguity but I think leavers disagree and they are not unreasonable to want politicians to sort that out for them.

If leave was poorly defined, then surely it's only right that it should then be defined, and that it should then be checked that the electorate are all on board?

But you don't want that. Because you know that for all it's tiny majority, the leave vote encompassed everything from WTO (probably less that 1%, as we were all guaranteed a fantastic deal, because cars apparently), to Norway ++, to "giving Cameron a bloody nose". So they would be very unlikely to all agree with Boris' deal.

If consistent polling had said remain was a majority position, I would happily have preferred revoke or a new ref. Right up to about 4-6 months ago. But that cannot be open-ended, leavers cannot be left hanging on forever when public sentiment has not changed.

I think it's important that if Brexit happens we get out of the habit of saying "Brexit will cause this" "Brexit will cause that."

While some of the damage is inevitable on leaving the EU - losing our influence, for instance, some is not. Leaving the EU does not actually have to mean reduced Workers Rights, environmental standards and if it does so that is solely the choice of the Conservative government and they should bear the sole responsibility.

If you frame all this as "Brexit" then it will give a message to Leave voters that they somehow "voted for this" and therefore must support it and also encourages Remainers to enjoy a bit of schadenfreude rather than trying to fight.

So when the Tories try to exclude EU Food Standards from the FTA we don't say to the farmers fighting it "You voted for it, suckers" We say "Put British farmers first" "Johnson is using Brexit as an excuse to give you crappy food" "Johnson's policies will destroy British farming so he can please Donald Trump".

If Brexit happens I want Conservatives punished for what they've done us, I want the 1997 bloodbath to look like a children's party. And the only way that happens is if we make them take full blame for everything that happens under their government. And that won't happen if we somehow blame THEIR policies, THEIR decisions on "Brexit".

HPFA I never thought about it that way but you are so right. We need to really challenge the government on what they choose to implement post Brexit.

I wasn't saying that Leave was poorly defined, on the contrary, there were up to 17 million definitions. But yes, the first task should have been to properly define it, and then at least have Parliament vote on it.

@JPharm

It's difficult because we all still hope that Brexit doesn't happen but if it does we need to be ready very quickly to change the narrative.

It's why I'm not really very keen on lines like "Brexit will never be over" "Brexit will take twenty years" etc. Brexit means leaving the EU and that will delivered on (presumably) Feb 1st. The mandate is fulfilled, nothing that happens after that is necessary to "deliver Brexit", it's purely down to the political choices of the Tory government.

I know it's tempting to enjoy the schadenfreude but more than that I want Tories to pay!!! I want every farmer to hear the message that their livelihoods were destroyed not by "Brexit" (and therefore they're somehow responsible for that) but by a Tory government using Brexit as a weapon against them. See how well that goes down in their rural constituencies.

I think it's going to be very difficult to frame that narrative though HPFA, however true it is. We are in a similar situation now - austerity/cuts are causing the current severe cuts in the public sector, but it's been framed as 'immigrants stopping us getting school places/GP appointments." I read at least one of those this morning on these MN threads. Whatever we say, that in the vast majority of cases, it really isn't, it makes no difference.

"If consistent polling had said remain was a majority position, I would happily have preferred revoke or a new ref."

Check it out

@Peregrina

On the other hand the Tories gave us Brexit and they're presumably going to be the ones delivering it too. So I'm not sure who else they'll blame for the bad consequences.

My worry is that I sense a lot of Remainers are gearing themselves up to blame the people who suffer under Brexit - like you see when there are closures at the Swindon and Sunderland plants, "oh well, they voted for it." It's not going to be a helpful narrative for making the Tories pay.

That's why I'm spending time campaigning in Wantage constituency as well as Ox West. It's probably too early for this election but I definitely think could be in play in 2024 if Johnson really does try and implement Hard Brexit.

Farage will be irrelevant once Brexit happens

49/46 Doris. It would need to be 60/40 to be meaningful. Election polls. EU election.

Why? Apparently 48.1 - 51.9 was overwhelming...

Sadly @misspiggy19 , he will still be around telling us the trade deal we strike with the EU (if we actually do manage this) isn't Brexitty enough. Plenty more steam on this gravy train for him and his acolytes.

That was an actual result. Polling has a margin of error.

But given it's consistency, and the vast impact of the result, don't you think it might possibly be an idea to confirm that it's still the Willy of the People?

The election will do that for you really (more or less).

But we've had Leavers on these threads insisting that the election is absolutely nothing to do with Brexit...

The election won’t do that really, my leave voting parents still intend to vote labour as usual, I also know Tory remainers who have said they will vote Tory to keep Corbyn out.

I actually think the last Parliament was pretty representative of the country tbh. Split 50/50 leave/remain, with the leave MP’s support split such that there was no majority for any type of Brexit. I predict more of the same come December, particularly if the Russia report is published as TBIJ have launched a legal challenge for publication.

But then if Johnson gets back in, he will probably suppress the Russia report.