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Brexit

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Westminstenders: From Uxbridge to...? Part deux GE 2019 special.

999 replies

placemats · 03/11/2019 17:54

New thread.

General election 12th December 2019. Results out on Friday 13th. Unlucky day for some.

So this election is unusual in that it will focus primarily on Brexit and referendums with domestic issues tagged alongside, for some parties.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
DGRossetti · 04/11/2019 10:20

Corbyn sounds (childishly) proud of himself for standing up to his (probably Remainer) MPs to support a GE:

What's the point of being a leader otherwise FFS ? Faint heart never won fair lady and all that ?

Poor Jeremy. Has to endure years of accusations of dithering, only to make a decision and face accusations of making a decision.

Looks like the MSM has really done a number - even amongst Remainers.

Rather that jumping in an excoriating Corbyn, why not use a couple of brain cells, and work out the path any other route would have ended in. Because a GE was inevitable sooner rather than later, and if Corbyn had tried to delay it much longer, the straight-majority election bill (with the caveat that it seemed ridiculously easy to circumvent the FTPA after all the fuss HmmHmmHmmHmmHmm) would have still be presented and won with Tory+DUP+SNP/LD support anyway. So we'd still have an election, but would start with the charge that Corbyn was "frit" which would have boosted any Tory attempts to demonise him and the Labour vote.

As someone who is far from Corbyns biggest fan, I find it embarrassingly easy to defend him against fairly weak accusations.

One of DMs favourite books (sadly never going to be available on Kindle) was an odd out-of-place piece by Gavin Maxwell titled I can look after my enemies, but God protect me from my friends.

(Interesting read for anyone who likes history, social commentary, and intrigue in exotic places. Although - as you'd twig when you read it - even "history" is not what it seems.)

placemats · 04/11/2019 10:26

It's mighty good of the SDLP to stand down Hester. I still think that there will be at least 8 SF MPs, who of course will not take their seats. I heard on the grapevine that there are calls to no longer pledge allegiance to the Queen, but to pledge instead to Parliament.

I think Alliance will take North Down from the DUP.

OP posts:
placemats · 04/11/2019 10:26

As someone who is far from Corbyns biggest fan, I find it embarrassingly easy to defend him against fairly weak accusations.

I agree DGR.

OP posts:
prettybird · 04/11/2019 10:30

It doesn't seem to occur to those who "hate" Nicola and the SNP that in an independent Scotland they could then vote. for. who. the. fuck. they. like. ShockConfused

The number of people I've pointed this out to and they've gone "Oh yes, d'uh, I hadn't considered that Hmm" Confused

Personally, I'm looking forward to a revitalised Labour Party and even a revamped "One Nation" (Wink) Conservative/Right of centre Party, alongside the Greens and the SNP (that I would expect would probably splinter once independence is achieved). (Interesting that I didn't initially think of the LibDems in that future scenario but I'm sure they'll be there in some way Hmm)

It's actually not good for the SNP or for Scotland to have such poor quality opposition Sad

I would still expect the SNP to be a left of centre party and given the calibre of its leadership team, to be in government for a while yet, but it's not a given with better politicians in opposition.

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 04/11/2019 10:42

Pmk
When would Bojo have to declare he's moving seats from Uxbridge ?

Volvemos · 04/11/2019 10:44

(Apologies if this has been posted before and I missed it.)

From the Telegraph:
Speaker of the House music: John Bercow immortalised in Belgian dance single

John Bercow is the unlikely star of a Belgian dance music single called ORDER, which immortalises the Speaker in the form of an imperious, boogieing muppet.

Thanks to his ornate language and bellowing cries across an unruly House of Commons during the Brexit debates, Mr Bercow has become a global media star, including in Belgium.

He may be preparing to step down as Speaker of the House but can at least take comfort in that he has been transformed into a speaker on a banging “house” track.

ORDER was released by Micheal Schack, an Antwerp born musician and drummer with several well-known Belgian bands.

In the accompanying video, a Bercow-resembling muppet cries “unlock”, “division” and other Commons catchphrases before bellowing “orderrrrrrr!” in the Speaker’s instantly recognisable style.

Puppets representing Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn fight and dance to the backing of repetitive dance beats and euphoric electronic sounds.

The track is available on Spotify and Apple iTunes and has clocked up 10,577 views in just seven days. MPs will elect Mr Bercow's successor in London today, the first such vote for a decade.

It is not the first time Belgians have drawn on the world of politics to inspire their electronic music.

Brussels Sound Revolution had a 1989 hit with Qui?, a track sampling a press conference given by former Belgian Prime Minister Paul Vanden Boeynants after he was kidnapped.

A furious Mr Boeynants told reporters his trademark pipe was stolen, asking, “Qui m'a enlevé?” (Who kidnapped me?). This became the basis of the song and the surreal accompanying video.

Brussels Sound Revolution was a high-profile exponent of New Beat, a Belgian genre fusing techno and acid house music in the late 1980s.

Belgium claims to be one of the birthplaces of techno music. Although the country was influential in its development, it is generally accepted that the blueprint of the form was laid down in Detroit, USA, in the mid 1980s.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/04/speaker-house-music-john-bercow-immortalised-belgian-dance-single/

FadingStar · 04/11/2019 10:45

I heard on Radio Ulster that Sinn Fein will also move aside for SDLP when needed to ensure the best for Remain parties. I can't wait until Nigel Dodds loses his seat!

DGRossetti · 04/11/2019 10:54

Speaker of the House music: John Bercow immortalised in Belgian dance single

Only just caught a few seconds of the opening, but had a weird 35-year flashback to "Two Tribes" and Frankie Says ...

I wonder if there's a campaign in that - might just prod some latent sentiments for Labour from a certain generation ...

Jezza Sez - guaranteed to infuriate grammar nazis and Tories alike if it makes it to a T-Shirt.

Could also work to rekindle (second time in a morning I've used the "k" word Grin) the Glastonbury vibe.

fedup21 · 04/11/2019 10:55

When would Bojo have to declare he's moving seats from Uxbridge

Yes, I’d like to know this

DGRossetti · 04/11/2019 11:00

I heard on Radio Ulster that Sinn Fein will also move aside for SDLP when needed to ensure the best for Remain parties.

Its fascinating how a canny electorate can find unpredictable ways around the FPTP iniquities. If a few exercises like this actually work, and deny the bigger party their desired outcome, I wonder how soon before electoral reform (re)appears as a "pressing concern".

A lot depends on whether people are tactically arranging the outcome based on a "stop Boris" platform, or a "stop Brexit" platform ?

ListeningQuietly · 04/11/2019 12:05

Nominations close at the end of this month I believe.

The Winchester article was interesting - if the Tories had not re admitted Brine, they'd have lost the seat.

Bozo is likely to be given Christchurch as Chope got his knighthood early in the year and the majority is massive and certain

Interesting that Southampton Itchen is not on the list of marginals - then again its more of a personal grudge match than a party issue and all the more fun to watch because of it

BigChocFrenzy · 04/11/2019 12:13

"When would Bojo have to declare he's moving seats from Uxbridge"

Deadline for delivery of nomination papers is 4pm on Thursday, 14 November

So if he chooses to flee, there is still time left, but it's tight

  • signed nomination papers for both his new seat AND the (unlucky) new candidate at Uxbridge must be received by the deadline
BigChocFrenzy · 04/11/2019 12:20

The "Publication of notice of election" must be done by 4 pm on 11 November

The nominations to stand as an MP candidate must be signed and received - not sent - between then and 4 pm on 14 November

So at most a 3 days period to deliever the nominations wih correct details & signatures

  • I wonder if the Farage Company or any individuals from the major parties will miss the deadline ? Hmm The parties give the impression of not being able to find both cheeks with a search party.
Sostenueto · 04/11/2019 12:21

Pmk

DGRossetti · 04/11/2019 12:23

www.counterfire.org/articles/opinion/20620-the-devil-and-the-deep-blue-sea-labour-and-johnson-s-deal

counterfire.org
The devil and the deep blue sea: Labour and Johnson’s deal
Kevin Ovenden
10-13 minutes

October 18, 2019
Published in Opinion

Boris Johnson. Graphic: Pixabay/Succo

Boris Johnson. Graphic: Pixabay/Succo

Final stage Brexit fatigue cannot be allowed to override fundamental class imperatives, argues Kevin Ovenden

Boris Johnson’s exit deal is worse for working people than Theresa May’s.

She had to make some concessions on workers rights and environmental standards in her plan, three times rejected in parliament.

Johnson’s deal drops those commitments, though the government was today looking to make vague, but not binding, references to them in order to attract support.

It’s on that basis, working people’s rights, that the labour movement should judge this big business deal. It is the reason why every Labour MP ought to vote against it in parliament tomorrow.

There is no guarantee that all will. The vote could come down to single figures either way.

Whatever happens, we have to face an uncomfortable fact. Johnson’s position is far less precarious than it was six weeks ago when his anti-democratic suspension of parliament backfired. Labour’s is more difficult.

It is by no means impossible. Labour can still make big strides in a general election. But ground has slipped. It is due growing influence of the Remain at all costs wing of Labour.

One thing the last few days have done is to expose its wrong arguments that have sown debilitating confusion.

We were told throughout the summer and into this week that not only would Johnson not get a revised deal from the EU, but that he didn’t even want one. He was just going through the motions.

The claim that the EU “would never reopen the Withdrawal Agreement” had already been deployed against Labour earlier this year to argue that electing a Corbyn-led government to negotiate a left or people’s Brexit was irrelevant as the EU’s position was set in stone.

Then many Labour people made the same claim about Johnson’s efforts.

Well, the EU has shifted. The so-called Northern Ireland backstop, supposedly inviolable, has gone. That is because Johnson shifted to what is in reality separate arrangements for Northern Ireland, which the Loyalist DUP was holding out against as of this morning.

Put aside what has been agreed with the EU. The big point is that something new has been agreed, when the continuity-Remain operation run by friends of Tony Blair and many Labour MPs said it could not happen.

They were wrong and the public can see that they were wrong. That includes the majority middle ground trying to switch off from the Brexit drama on account of more immediate concerns such as low pay, housing, deteriorating public services and murderous working conditions.
Mantra

Second, and related, was the false argument that gained traction also on the left that Johnson did not want a deal. It became a kind of dogma defying evidence and reality.

So Tory ex-chancellor Philip Hammond took up the conspiratorial conjecture that Johnson was driving to an over the cliff Brexit on 31 October because hedge-fund friends of his had bet on the massive economic turbulence that would cause.

The respected financial commentator Frances Coppola debunked that “theory” in Forbes magazine simply by examining the actual bets the funds had made and finding that they did not fit with such a conspiracy.

That did not prevent the mantra of “stop Johnson’s no-deal Brexit” coming to drown out all else throughout the month of September. It was right to head off a damaging crash out. But this was done on a false premise and those of the continuity-Remain operation pushed the line that it required constantly pushing back a general election, holding a second referendum instead to overturn the first one, and stopping not just “no deal” but any Brexit at all.

Labour’s conference compromise made further concessions on the position that gained votes from Remainers and Leavers in 2017, though it managed to keep a priority on a general election.

But in practice the continuity-Remain operation, which includes shadow cabinet members Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry, ploughed on and in parliament Labour moved away from pressing for a general election. Thus we ended up with John McDonnell of the left entertaining a referendum before any election and, disastrously, Labour losing one and that Corbyn would have to stand down.

Now the excessive focus on stopping a supposedly deliberate no-deal Brexit comes back to haunt those who made it on a false basis.

Johnson can say: you said stop no-deal at all costs. You played parliamentary games and went to the courts. Well, my deal does stop that – the deal you said I’d never get and didn’t even want.

It is not the impact in parliament that matters, but outside as everything Johnson says is geared to a coming election.

Moreover, this is not just Johnson’s deal. It is the EU’s deal. It and all the component governments are enthusiastic about it and are lending Johnson all the political support they can muster. The Dutch PM Mark Rutte said this is a “beautiful compromise... We really made a square into a circle. I would say to the British House of Commons: what more do you want?”

EU Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker said there was “no need for a prolongation”. The British parliament should approve the deal now.

Lots of pro-Remain commentators pointed out that it is not in his gift to grant or not another extension to the process. It is down to the other 27 EU heads of government agreeing unanimously. And if Johnson fails tomorrow they may well reconvene and approve an extension – though only for a defined purpose, such as for an election or another try in parliament.

But that isn’t the point. The significance is that at all levels the EU is with the British government in its efforts. Johnson can claim, credibly, to be speaking for the EU as well as his own administration.
Fake

This ought to shatter once and for all some childlike illusions in the EU and its governments whereby they are some idealistic historical force for all that is good. It is a bureaucratic hierarchy of capitalist states operating according to ruthless realpolitik.

Further, the vast majority of its governments are of the centre-right and have much more in common with any Tory government in Britain than with a Corbyn one, which they fear, or with those who mistakenly project their socialist beliefs onto EU capitalist institutions.

They have given Johnson a big political boost. Either it’s enough for him to swing sufficient MPs in parliament, or it strengthens his position going into a general election.

He can run the fake populist line that is well trailed: that he represents the “popular will against the elites”. But he can add to that: I get things done. Far from being extreme, I have such good relations in Europe that I got an agreement that my opponents and cynics said was impossible. The real dogmatists here are extreme Remainers in a dysfunctional parliament. Give me a majority and I can settle this in a sensible way.

Dishonest as it is (this is Johnson), it can seem to many plausibly to represent a “national consensus”, bounded by two “extremes” – Farage’s Brexit party on the one hand, and undemocratic, out of touch MPs on the other who are being more pro-EU than the EU itself.

This is the great danger. It will not be met by rebel Labour MPs giving support to Johnson’s deal. Nor will it be met by more concessions to the continuity-Remain operation and collapsing fully into another referendum on Johnson’s – or even May’s – deal, thus deferring well into next year a general election.

The so-called “People’s Vote” operation holding a demonstration tomorrow is not in fact proposing in parliament to have a “people’s vote”, on account of it not having a majority.

The contradictions in this might be brushed off by continuity-Remain enthusiasts. They will not be lost on many ordinary people.
Twists

It has become blindingly obvious that the thrust of the operation is stopping a Corbyn government and getting Labour to destroy all its political capital in overturning the 2016 referendum by avoiding the big democratic vote that matters – a general election.

And whatever the further twists and turns in Labour’s position following tomorrow, as Jeremy Corbyn does his best to prevent yet more slippage, it is already the case that talk of a general election is more and more missing from Labour’s vocabulary.

We were told that this would not happen, that not voting a month ago for a general election merely meant a delay of a couple of weeks and was all about stopping a supposed deliberate plan by Johnson to crash out on 31 October.

What in fact has happened, as many of us said, is that referendum talk has eclipsed election talk from Labour.

This only plays into Johnson’s hands. For there may well be an election before the end of the year if he cannot get his deal through parliament.

But it will be with him forcing it and Labour perceived not to want it. There are already stories trailed of “backbench Labour MPs” opposed to having an election at all. The kinds of arguments put last month against voting for one will grow from that quarter.

This is a problem principally of the continuity-Remain operation that has damaged Labour. It is also a result of mistaken concessions in that direction that risk a vicious spiral.

The way out is to move back to a simple position that working people can also understand. Aim to topple Johnson and vote out the Tories. Defeat his deal in parliament tomorrow and press to no confidence the government.

Whether that carries or not, it shifts the debate towards the ground where Labour can advance – against Tory privileged rule and for a radical, left transformative government.

None of that is easy. But the alternative path has already led to a far worse situation:

Johnson making plausible (though in reality mendacious) claims to represent the national consensus, but blocked by entitled MPs.

Labour chained down like Gulliver by the likes of nitwit Jo Swinson and its own ultra-Remain MPs.

This is the situation to get out of - not dig deeper into.

BigChocFrenzy · 04/11/2019 12:37

When the EU said they wouldn't reopen the WA - they meant they wouldn't make any concessions
Of course they would accept more concessions - they just didn't expect the UK side to give them !

For Ireland and to protect the Single market, BJ offered them a permanent NI "frontstop" instead of a temporary NI backstop
The WA kept their other red lines of exit bill ând expat rights

So of course the EU bit his arm off

They won't want to risk losing the gains in this WA.
There is a (small) possibility they might consider doing so if there is a stable new govt with a 5-year term that wants to add on that the UK stays in the SM and has a new Customs Agreement too

However, they are pretty fed up with negotiating with the Uk and then the UK wanting something else

More likely is that they would say that the WA must be passed as is, but that the new govt can negotiate a much closer relationship in an extended transition

derxa · 04/11/2019 12:39

.

flouncyfanny · 04/11/2019 13:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Icantreachthepretzels · 04/11/2019 13:27

I still think that there will be at least 8 SF MPs, who of course will not take their seats.

According to the New European article they are only planning to stand in 7 seats - 6 of which are already theirs.

Icantreachthepretzels · 04/11/2019 13:30

candidates looking good for the brexit party

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/jill-hughes-claims-to-be-from-sirius-1-6356375

Grin
ListeningQuietly · 04/11/2019 13:39

Are folks going to be watching the Speaker election ?

BigChocFrenzy · 04/11/2019 13:40

MPs warned to not go out alone or after dark during general election

Brexit is the poison that keeps giving:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/03/mps-warned-to-not-go-out-alone-or-after-dark-during-general-election

Politicians fighting the general election have been told to take unprecedented security precautions by their parties and police.

Those seen as most at risk are being equipped with security alarms amid fears that a winter poll dominated by Brexitt^ could turn violent.

Many have also been advised not to campaign after dark or alone,
and not to enter people’s homes even if the weather is bad

Icantreachthepretzels · 04/11/2019 13:42

Huh - so Nigel Farage is calling for a second referendum on electoral reform in order to benefit his party.
Mark Francois says he has lost the plot. FPTP won the last referendum by 68% and there is no indication that the electorate (specifically Farage supporters) have changed their mind.

It's very strange watching the two hideous frog men fight. Farage is correct - we do need electoral reform... but is being a massive hypocrite in asking for a second referendum for something that will benefit him, when there are literally million people strong marches crying out for a second brexit referendum - but that would be 'against the will of the people'.

So what is the shelf life of a referendum Mr. Farage?

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/mark-francois-farage-lost-the-plot-after-calling-second-referendum-1-6356270

flouncyfanny · 04/11/2019 13:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mistigri · 04/11/2019 13:52

candidates looking good for the brexit party

What a jolly surprise it would be if it turned out that a party company run by Mr N. Farage had not done its due diligence when selecting candidates Grin

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that the only inspection done was of the candidate's donations.