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Brexit

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 13:19

Status Recall as of approx 1

Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement (The WA) :
Currently parliamentary session blocked in its current form due to being nodded through (government accept defeat without vote). It can not be represented to the house without changes (which the EU will not allow - unless perhaps it reverts back to May's WA) or a 'substantive change of circumstances' (eg another party says they will support it and there is reason to believe Johnson now has a clear majority).

The Withdrawal Agreement Bill (The WAB):
The withdrawal agreement bill is purely about how the WA will be carried out in UK law. It passed its 2nd reading which is merely a indication of interest of support for the bill. The next stage is where amendments can be made and this is most relevant to the political declaration which accompanies the WA settlement.

This however has hit a road block due to the government recklessly and foolishly trying to push such an important and far reaching bill through in a ridiculous time frame, which no one could possibly give proper scrutiny to.

If Johnson wants a deal in the best int3of the country its an essential part of the process regardless of which side of the fence you sit. Failure to spot problems could leave us shafted by other countries later down the line.

The timetable is now under review and negotiation with Corbyn.

The extension with the EU:
The EU president has signaled he would support an extension. This is in part because issues in London mean it is highly unlikely the EU will be able to ratify a deal by next Thursday even if they have an emergency meeting. It's in their interests to extend in some way.

Going along with the Benn Act is the politically least risky option, though France are making growling noises about it.

Two issues spring up with this. The first is the issue of the UK having no EU Commissioner after 1st Nov and the second is the EU budget runs until 31st Dec 2019.

The Queens Speech:
The government as it stands might struggle to pass the QS especially with the DUP off side. It failing to pass is, in some ways, a good thing for Johnson. The speech was essentially a manifesto and blocking it is a good electioneering strategy. It also puts pressure on the opposition for a Vote of No Confidence.

There are already rumblings following the passing of the 2nd reading of the WAB and the EU signally they are open to an extension that some in Labour (including crucially Corbyn) do think they must agree to a GE in the autumn.

A Vonc is still unlikely to happen until the EU formalise the extension and the EU are unlikely to do this until its clear what Johnson's next move with the WAB is. Johnson meanwhile doesn't want to agree to a longer timetable as that ruins his do or die speech and facilitates an extension. So expect some brinkmanship over timings here. We might not get a formal extension approved until the wire.

The GE:
All Brexit is currently about is manoeuvring to win the next GE. It must be seen in this context.

Polling suggests that an extension without the WA is bad for Johnson and he is likely to lose support to the Brexit Party. There is an ever shrinking likelihood of the WA going through before 31st Oct, if its not impossible already. Thus Johnson needs to see if he can get the WA through very quickly after an extension but before a GE.

This reasonably lines up with Labour's problems. Before the WA goes through a GE looks bad for them with them haemorrhaging support to the LDs and the the Brexit Party.

If they are seen to facilitate the WA passing before an election then there may also be a sense of betrayal amongst their majority remain supporters but it might let them off with the Brexit Party threat particularly in the Midlands.

Meanwhile the SNP have an increasing desire for a GE. They look like they will clean up in Scotland and it might be their last chance now to stop Brexit. Similar logic applies to the LDs.

Thus the chances of a GE shoot up once an extension is granted, but the Cons and Labour have a mutual self interest in getting a deal done ASAP before a GE in many ways.

This of course would probably suit the French and therefore the EU.

Which is why a deal before 15th Nov and by the 15th Dec, isnt unrealistic. A GE might come before Christmas but I think both the Cons and Lab have something of an interest in letting the dust settle and getting new messaging in to head off threats from the LDs and Brexit Party. I'd be more inclined to say a Feb election tbh.

Anyway things may have changed since I started typing this up given how quickly things are moving.

But despite the headlines that Brexit is in pergortory it is now slowly rolling forward and now has some momentum behind it.

OP posts:
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DGRossetti · 24/10/2019 11:14

A good Biblical principle - Acts11:29-30

Yeah, well, the hypocrisy and cant of organised religion is a website in itself.

Ellie56 · 24/10/2019 11:18

Assuming the EU are going to give us an extension, I tend to agree with Ian Dunt that we need a GE sooner rather than later, and before Boris has forced his hideous "deal" through Parliament.

And I agree Johnson's speeches are crap and unimpressive.

lonelyplanetmum · 24/10/2019 11:18

Why is the GDPR ridiculous? All it does it stop companies misusing your and my data.

The fines are hugely misunderstood. The fines arise where there has been a serious breach- normally a huge company like Amazon or a 'phone company paying fast and loose with millions of people's data. A small company who makes an innocent mistake with processing data is not going to be fined.

•	The max fine for a very serious breach is 4% of global turnover.
•	The ICO was always able to fine up to £500,000 for serious case but they have <span class="underline">never</span> used this maximum fine. 

• Eg TalkTalk had a massive data breach of hundreds of thousands of data records the ICO only fined them £400,000.
• There were 17,300 investigations in 2016 by the ICO only 16 of those resulted in fines and the ICO have repeatedly said that level is unlikely to change.

mrslaughan · 24/10/2019 11:22

@Mistigri is it cheaper for a comparable service though? Not talking the pretty fluff around the edges - talking about outcomes......I think I read somewhere these are slipping

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 24/10/2019 11:35

Mistigri
Some thing are cheaper, notably drugs because of the NHS's exceptionally large purchasing power which dwarfs that of more fragmented European purchasers.

Except when they are not, as in the example I gave above.

DGRossetti · 24/10/2019 11:35

Time and again the UK implements EU laws with extra embellishments and then uses it to whinge about the EU.

Not only that ... even when initiatives are being discussed, the UK has a reputation for upping the ante. The Galileo project, for example. It was the UK which insisted that no non-EU countries be allowed access to the secret bits. Way beyond what the rest of the EU thought was necessary.

A decision that is going to really bite us in the ass, because - being blunt - there is no fucking way the UK is ever going to create it's own GPS system. So we'll be in hock to the Yanks, EU, India, China, and Russia for a vital part of the infrastructure needed for the Brave New World we want to build.

Nice one leavers !

Mistigri · 24/10/2019 11:39

@mrslaughan not easy to find prices for the different types of MRI on the NHS - the ÂŁ130 I quoted was probably an average. MRIs vary a lot in their cost because they are time consuming to perform (so most of the cost is variable cost ie radiologist and technician time).

But it does seem to me likely that France is cheaper for the simpler diagnostic tests like lab work, xrays and MRI scans, partly (and I know this is heresy) because of the widespread use of the private sector providers.

The critical difference vs the NHS is that these providers are not explicitly contracted to perform X number of interventions, they simply provide services to patients who individually choose to attend a private laboratory or doctor rather than a publicly owned hospital. These healthcare services are reimbursed based on unit prices set by a central authority.

Private providers can practice what is called "dépassement des honoraires" (ie charging over the going rate) but they have to tell patients, because this extra cost is not covered by the state health insurance scheme. Outside Paris and Lyon health providers mostly don't overcharge, because people won't pay for it. My DH's private psychiatrist works on one of the poshest streets in Toulouse (which is a relatively expensive city by French standards) but she still only charges the going rate of about €45 per consultation. The market here is very effective at keeping prices down. There is waste (the system creates an incentive to provide unnecessary treatment) but the unit cost of treatment is kept very low by a clever mixture of state regulation and private sector competition.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 24/10/2019 11:41

out of interest and its a genuine question, if any of you do vote LibDem in the election and say they went into coalition with the Tories (personally think thats what Swinson is up to) will you feel betrayed or hopefull that the LibDems will curb some of the cruelty the nasty party displays?

thewomanontheshore · 24/10/2019 11:47

It's 4% of global turnover or [I forget the figure but it's in the millions], whichever is the greater.

DGRossetti · 24/10/2019 11:47

out of interest and its a genuine question, if any of you do vote LibDem in the election and say they went into coalition with the Tories (personally think thats what Swinson is up to) will you feel betrayed or hopefull that the LibDems will curb some of the cruelty the nasty party displays?

Before we get that far up the ladder, I'd like to start on the first rung of knowing what sort of arrangement you're suggesting. Full on coalition ? C&S ? Some sort of wooly "pact" ? They all have different considerations.

Before any suggestion of collaboration, there would need to be a public ditching of both manifestos.

All of which being typed does seem akin to fitting angels on the head of a pin. A nice hypothetical, but ain't ever gonna happen. Although I could see Jo Swinson (re) joining the Tories at some point.

prettybird · 24/10/2019 11:48

I get absolutely no sense that that's what Swinson is up to Confused

....but there again, I don't need to vote Labour or LibDem as I live in Scotland Grin (....and no, the SNP will never go into a C&S arrangement with the Conservatives, even if they were to promise Indyref2 in return)

Peregrina · 24/10/2019 11:52

I think the LibDems would get a lot of resignations. At the moment they are picking up moderates from both Labour and the Tories. Coalition as a junior party with the Tories, or even a C & S as the DUP have found, is not worth it.

mrslaughan · 24/10/2019 11:56

I am not sure where my vote will go. I agree with @prettybird - I don't think that's what she is up too....but IF I did vote Lib Dem and she backed the tories in their current form - yes I would definitely feel betrayed. If it was a more centrist Tory government- I would have to see what that looked like.
Coalition governments are all about compromise - something the electorate clearly doesn't like, and really punishes the minor coalition partner.

Back to the election question - why do so many people think it's a good idea - this deal if Bozo's is so full of traps, nasty things centrists or left voters don't want...... most leavers don't seem to do detail, so seemingly don't care how bad the effects are (until it affects them). No deal is not ruled out. I don't get why people who want to stop brexit or want a soft brexit (CU for example) think the time is right now.

Peregrina · 24/10/2019 12:04

Coalition governments are all about compromise - something the electorate clearly doesn't like, and really punishes the minor coalition partner.

I suspect that with a proper PR system, the electorate would be happy with Coalitions. It's trying to graft Coalitions on a FPTP system which doesn't work properly.

Ellie56 · 24/10/2019 12:19

The Lib dems are only just recovering from the last time they got into bed with the Tories.Surely they wouldn't go down that road again?

mrslaughan · 24/10/2019 12:22

@Peregrina - I think it also takes a mindset change. NZ transitioned from FFTP to MMP - it took a couple of election cycles for people to get really get their head around what the new reality was ....... it's not a perfect system but I think more people generally feel better represented.

BlaueLagune · 24/10/2019 12:27

I can't see the Libdems jumping into bed with the Tories unless it was run by Ken Clarke or Sarah Wollaston (and she's a Libdem now anyway).

I think they did curb their very worst excesses during the coalition but was a bit surprised how much they lay down and let them do their worst though, eg tuition fee rises and allowing the period for unfair dismissal to be increased to 2 years from 1 (and the ET fees). Even the likes of old Rory the-no-longer Tory is pretty objectionable really, just not compared with your ERGers.

BlaueLagune · 24/10/2019 12:30

Time and again the UK implements EU laws with extra embellishments and then uses it to whinge about the EU

They used to, the Coalition government stopped the gold-plating and started the "copy out". The GDPR applies directly to the UK although we did need a Data Protection Act 2018 to cover some of the issues it didn't regulate, or allowed member states to regulate. But those issues are more esoteric. So in this case it pretty much is EU law rather than UK law.

Mistigri · 24/10/2019 12:33

Pretty hard to imagine the Tories and the LDs working together in their current incarnations. Tbh trying to spin that line looks more like the partisan bullshit that got us in this mess than anything else.

If you vote for a minor party in a FPTP system then by definition you accept that the MP you vote to elect will either have to work from the backbenchers, or if s/he accedes to power via a coalition this will require significant compromise.

In grown up politics, people do not always seek to have everything they want. They might be content to get some of it. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 24/10/2019 12:35

Thank you for answering it was floating around in my brain had to get it out

Sconio123 · 24/10/2019 12:45

As we're on the subjects of the NHS & the LibDems....

evolvepolitics.com/jo-swinsons-lib-dems-refuse-to-support-motion-to-halt-nhs-privatisation/

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 12:55

Welcome, Sconio.

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 12:58

By the way, Sconio, have you heard the tune, 'Get Lucky'? It's so summery!

MockersthefeMANist · 24/10/2019 13:22

Speaker truns down Swinson amendment. It's not easy being the fourth party.

Meanwhile, JRM announces next week's business. Lots of Queen's Speech. No Brexit.

Oakenbeach · 24/10/2019 13:40

The LDs and Tories are poles apart on the most important political issue of our generation... they are as likely to go into coalition with the Tories as Labour is... it just ain’t going to happen. We’re a world away from 2010.