The Brexit Elephant in the Room

[twofingerstoEverything]

Will a time ever come when Brexit supporters will acknowledge that one of the reasons why we still have not Brexited is because there's no way of delivering the various - and sometimes conflicting - promises that were made by Leave campaign groups; that there is no way of leaving the EU without causing damage and chaos; and that if there was a way, it should have been identifiable by now and easy to promote to the British public?

All I've seen is denial and blame. I have never read or heard any Leave supporter acknowledge the very real difficulties inherent in attempting to deliver something that meant different things to different people.

Excellent article on this here. I particularly agree with this bit: Brexit won the vote. But it’s an ideology not a policy. When its supporters tried to turn it into policies, as they are still trying to do, it fell apart.

The Brexit Elephant has wrecked the living room and crapped all over the three-piece suite, and is now demanding more buns.

And talking of Leave voters having various and conflicting ideals about Brexit... It seems Nigel Farage is aghast at Boris's deal and has called for it to be rejected. Just not Brexity enough, I guess.
Whereas, despite TM's version not being Brexity enough for them the first couple of times, the ERG may well support BJ's version.
But it's the remoaners causing all the problems...

Many brexiteers realise that it won't be all benefits but feel the pros are worth the cons.

And the pros are...?

LOL @ Mockers

It doesn't matter because anything bad that happens is always the EU's fault.

If course it is difficult. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it. Most things worth doing are difficult. The disgrace of this process is that those who think they know better than us ordinary folk have deliberately made it more difficult than it needed to be in order to prove that they were right. There are still some remainer MPs trying to thwart the referendum result. They have deliberately made it difficult because they don’t care about the damage they are doing to the country and our international reputation. They have made it almost impossible for a decent deal to be achieved.

Exactly what benefits are the ordinary folk getting from this deal?

Ah, the poor ordinary folks, salt of the earth, real people vs parliament....

Yesterday I was looking on tv at that poor chap that walked alongside politicians going in and out of the Conservative party office (to negotiate the £s required to give their vote, me think) and this oldish man was holding a small placard stating “first leave then negotiate” trying to be filmed and be seen on tv and I was thinking...
What possesses a person to -probably- commute a considerable distance from home and make himself ridiculous holding a handwritten placard, with the most stupid motto on it? What? What do you demonstrate by shooting first, and asking later? Is that clever? Is that useful? Is that conductive to a deal with the next door neighbours you’ll have to trade with for the foreseeable future?

Don’t blame others.

From this deal? Not as many benefits as could have been achieved if our MPs had presented a more united front. I agree with you, if this is what you were hinting at Rafals.

*those who think they know better than us
*
I expect our elected representatives to know better than us (the average man in the street)

That's their job, to become experts and knowledgeable about the many aspects of running the country and make decisions on our behalf.

Personally I was appalled that I seemed to know more about things like the WTO and international trade than our various Brexit Secretary's. And I am by no means an expert.

Most things worth doing are difficult.
Indeed so, so you work and prepare for it. You don't just scream I want, I want like a spoilt brat.

There are still some remainer MPs trying to thwart the referendum result.

Oh deary me. We had an election in 2017 remember, after the Referendum. Why then didn't Leavers get off their backsides and make sure that they voted in Leave supporting MPs?

From this deal? Not as many benefits as could have been achieved if our MPs had presented a more united front. I agree with you, if this is what you were hinting at Rafals.

Wasn’t hinting at that at all. I want to know what ordinary like me are going to see. Your don’t seem to have answered so I’ll ask again. What benefits am I as an ‘ordinary person’ going to see?

Peregrina - agreed. They should have put their energy into preparing to carry out their mandate not trying to thwart it.

Many of the MPs elected in 2017 promised to honour the referendum result and then after they had been elected worked against it. This is why they don’t want another election. They daren’t face their electorate knowing they have failed to carry out their mandate.

Rafals - you asked: what are the benefits from this deal?

I answered: not that many.

You are talking about the ERG here I assume, and the DUP, as MPs who didn't carry out their mandate? If they had voted for May's deal it would have passed ages ago.

I’m talking about MPs who have tried to thwart Brexit at every turn and in doing so have shown their utter contempt for us, their electorate.

Some MPs didn’t vote for May’s deal as it was so poor and others because they believed they could avoid leaving at all. May herself was a remainer and was unable to negotiate a clean Brexit as she didn’t really believe in it.

I asked exactly what the benefits were. Neither ‘not as many’ nor ‘not have that many’ is an answer to that question.

Both answers suggest that there are some though. So what are they?

Yep we are talking about Rees-Mogg and co. Who wasn't prepared to be loyal to his party Leader.

Personally I am thankful that there are MPs who do believe that they are there to try to do their best for the country and their constituents.

Rafals - I’m not a fan of this deal. Look to Johnson for your answer.

I don’t doubt that some MPs think like that. But far too many have the Peterloo attitude that they need to save us for ourselves. They think they know better than we do what is in our best interests. Their contemptuous attitude towards their own voters has been exposed by this process. These are the MPs that I am complaining about. Who have conspired against the wishes of their electorate.

Are you just talking about Remain voting MPs in Leave areas, or do you include Leave voting MPs in Remain areas - like John Redwood for example?

But yes, they should know better than the average person in the street what is in the country's best interests - that is or should be their full time job, they have support staff and researchers and Libraries to back them up, and they should be able to take a wider perspective than the average person.

But where does that leave democracy? Do you really not see yourself as able to be trusted with complex issues? Handing over your franchise so easily leaves the path clear for exploitation. Even if you trust the current parliament, you can’t guarantee that you always will which is why it’s such a dangerous precedent to allow the referendum result to be not carried out.

Parliamentary MPs do have huge resources at their disposal but if they can’t win the argument they should defer to the people.

As far as I am concerned, we have a Parliamentary Democracy. I think the system is long overdue for reform and it's time we ditched first past the post and the confrontational style.

But no, I don't call Government by Referendum democracy; certainly not with our cockeyed make it up on the back of an envelope system. With countries like Ireland or Switzerland who do have a Parliamentary model which includes Referenda they have well honed rules as to how to conduct them. Even so, I believe that the Swiss Parliament has been known to overturn referendum results - basically saying to the populace, we have taken note of your wish, in practice we find we can't do it without damaging the country so we will can't implement it.