The Brexit Elephant in the Room

[twofingerstoEverything]

Will a time ever come when Brexit supporters will acknowledge that one of the reasons why we still have not Brexited is because there's no way of delivering the various - and sometimes conflicting - promises that were made by Leave campaign groups; that there is no way of leaving the EU without causing damage and chaos; and that if there was a way, it should have been identifiable by now and easy to promote to the British public?

All I've seen is denial and blame. I have never read or heard any Leave supporter acknowledge the very real difficulties inherent in attempting to deliver something that meant different things to different people.

Excellent article on this here. I particularly agree with this bit: Brexit won the vote. But it’s an ideology not a policy. When its supporters tried to turn it into policies, as they are still trying to do, it fell apart.

as per the nice man on the ITV news last night
"we will be free to make our own decisions"
so that is all right then

I agree the system probably needs to be reformed. In the referendum many voters were inspired to vote who had not voted in elections for years. They had become disenfranchised by the system. Probably the best thing about the referendum was that so many of these people saw the value in voting again. It reinvigorated our democracy. This is why it is so dangerous to fail to deliver on it. For years our governments have governed on minority mandates because the turn out at elections is often so poor. Having caught the imagination of those previously hard to reach voters and given them a stake in the system again, it would be a tragedy to fail to carry out the mandate. One that our democracy would not easily recover from.

They need then to say what they want. It's no good whinging that Theresa May didn't deliver because she was a Remainer - she couldn't deliver because Leavers only told her what they didn't want. The exception to that would be more money for the NHS, which isn't anything to do with the EU and everything to do with Tory austerity, which she could have tackled as soon as she took office. As could Johnson, but so far we have heard noises, which aren't backed up by any substance.

I have been voting for the better part of 50 years now, and it's only in the last 10 or so that I have managed to get my own choice of candidate elected, but I kept pressing on and got involved in politics. So I basically have bugger all sympathy with people who only voted in the Referendum, and from those Leavers I know, for completely daft reasons, and have then gone back to sleep again. If they don't like it, get involved, work for the change you want to see.

Absolutely work for change. But it is a slow process and having got this far it would be a tragedy to throw it away. It is possible to be politically active and still not have a candidate to vote for. It’s a shame you only know leavers with daft reasons. I know many who have legitimate concerns they are passionate about.

Well, let's hear these concerns that they are passionate about. Genuine concerns, not soundbites.

Most things worth doing are difficult

Says who ? Shouldn't it be Things worth doing , are worth doing well ?

I agree the system probably needs to be reformed. In the referendum many voters were inspired to vote who had not voted in elections for years. They had become disenfranchised by the system.

They had NOT been 'disenfranchised'. No-one had deprived them of the right to vote, which is what disenfranchisement means. There is a lot of voter apathy in this country, as evidenced by the turnout at elections. What we did see prior to the referendum was off the scale rhetoric, which probably did 'inspire' many to vote. Cummings admitted that Leave won by appealing to emotion rather than rationality. They did not invest in buses with slogans about the NHS and dog whistle 'breaking point' posters for no reason. Those campaigners knew exactly what they were doing.

This is why it is so dangerous to fail to deliver on it. Problem is, the people campaigning for 'it' weren't the people who had to subsequently deliver 'it'. And look where that's left us: Leave MPs whining about being thwarted, Leave voters blaming everyone else for their version of Brexit not being delivered. And more than 3 years of money and resources wasted.

They were effectively disenfranchised. So-called voter apathy was a result of a broken system rather than apathetic attitudes. Those in power atm may well be out of step with their electorate. In which case they should do the right things. As should the so-called rebels who have switched parties without asking their constituents for support. The victims of the system are not to blame for its failures.

They need then to say what they want. It's no good whinging that Theresa May didn't deliver because she was a Remainer - she couldn't deliver because Leavers only told her what they didn't want.
Spot on, Peregrina

So-called voter apathy was a result of a broken system rather than apathetic attitudes.
Where is your evidence for this?
It would be very easy for me to have voter apathy. I live in a Tory safe seat, which - ever since the constituency was created in 1945 - has never elected a non-Conservative. I still go and vote, even though it counts for nothing. I don't sit at home whining that I've been 'disenfranchised by the system', even though I think PFTP is absurdly unrepresentative.

Voter apathy is exactly that.

Now you are back, Finerumpus, let's now hear about the legitimate concerns that Leavers are passionate about.

Since democracy is such a big thing for you, let's hear what you are doing about Johnson's latest wheeze to insist on photo ID before people are allowed to vote. This is to tackle the crime of 'personation'
for which I believe, one person, yes one, was prosecuted at the last election. Let's hear about those places where voter ID was trialled with 2,000 legitimate voters being turned away, because they didn't have photo ID, and of which 750 didn't return. There are estimated to be 3 million people in this country who have neither passport nor driving licence. These are the ones who are in danger of being disenfranchised. Let's hear also about those EU citizens who were wrongly denied a vote in the EU elections. Or those overseas voters who either a) didn't get their postal votes in time, or b) have been abroad to long, and Cameron was going to enfranchise, but never got around to it.

Let's not have the mardy nonsense of people normally too lazy to bother to vote whinging about being disenfranchised, and who won't now tell us what they do want.

I wonder if it means that people will take the ferry to NIreland to stock up on stuff that is cheaper in the EU, could be a lucrative tourism plus for NIreland.

Ditto for me, twofingers; I used to live in what the Tories regarded as a safe seat. It's not now. It would still be a 'safe seat' for them if we'd all whined about it, but instead we got active. Yes, it takes time and effort to go slogging round streets leafleting or canvassing, but last time it paid off.

It paid off spectacularly well the the local elections, where a high turnout led to some very complacent Tory councillors, who thought they were entitled to their seats, being given the boot. Who then started whinging about how they hadn't been able to achieve the stuff they hadn't bothered to tackle in all the previous years they were in office. I live in an area where Labour has no chance, but the same can often be said about Labour councillors (think Scotland and what's happened to Labour there.)

I have no hope for my constituency, Peregrina! However, the neighbouring one - also a Tory safe seat for decades - saw the Con majority take a massive nosedive last election thanks to changing demographics. Lots of young families have moved in, having been priced out of the nearest city, and this has changed the political landscape.

The disgrace of this process is that those who think they know better than us ordinary folk have deliberately made it more difficult than it needed to be in order to prove that they were right.

It cant be hard to acknowledge that 'ordinary folk' simply DO NOT have the experience and expertise to know how incredibly complex trade arrangements actually get negotiated - they take years and result in compact and dense legal documents.
When Gove ( I think it was him) announced " we don't need experts" I knew then he was calling for ill-informed populism and ignorance (which can be easily manipulated) to replace good sense and security as well as economic well-being that has been developed over decades.

And the GBP have been stupid enough to go for a slogan and appeal to 'feelings' rather than facts.

The ERG/Johnson etc despise the GBP BUT will take it's money.

Same for me. We’d stand a much better chance of ousting our useless Tory MP if those people who can’t generally be bothered to vote got up and actually voted.

I don’t suppose there’s any point in asking what benefits disenfranchised, ordinary folk are going to get from leaving the EU.

Well said peregrina !
People confusing being disenfranchised with disinterest and apathy.

Peregrina - please define genuine concerns and sound bites in this context if you actually want me to respond. I will do this evening if you are still interested. I’m at work now.

As for photo ID, I’m campaigning against it. What are you doing?

Not voting in an election where none of the options is even satisfactory is a rational response and a legitimate form of protest. Instead of blaming and name-calling campaigners should be engaging with this section of the potential electorate.

You only need to look at the referendum turnout to debunk the myth that laziness prevents voting.

Also campaigning against it, and very active in a local political party.
As for soundbites - it shouldn't need defining but the usual 'take back control', of what exactly? Control our borders? Don't we already? I have never entered the country without showing a passport with the exception of coming from Ireland, but I have travelled right across Europe without getting my passport out of my bag.

Make our own laws - tell us which ones that are objected to. This is what I mean by soundbites.

I don't think that not turning out is a legitimate response - for me the legitimate response is to turn out and spoil your ballot. Spoilt votes are tallied up. Just not going to vote doesn't tell anyone whether the voter is annoyed because of the system or because they just can't be bothered.

I don't think we only need to look at the Referendum to say that laziness prevents voting - we have had a GE since, Local and EU elections and what stopped the people voting in those? In Local elections especially an effective local campaign can see Councils change hands. E.g. South Oxfordshire DC, Tory since the year dot, is now in NOC with a coalition of LibDems and Greens running it.

Fatshedra there will no doubt be many benefits for NI in staying aligned with EU (funny that). I will be happy for them. But it will have knock on effect of royally pissing of Scotland when we are suffering in comparison.

I am very worried about my future finances, working conditions, and selling off the NHS.I would like to know what benefits there will be for me in Brexit?

Speaking as a Brit who was actually disenfranchised for practising my right to FOM and moving to Europe, you can fuck off with your "effectively disenfranchised".

1. Fortress Europe
2. Lack of accountability of EU Commission
3. Additional levels of government mean that our national elected representatives are more difficult to hold to account - they can pass the blame on
4. The direction that the EU is going in - greater & greater union
5. The longevity of the EU
6. The breakdown of a sense of common purpose/solidarity

Wish - no need to be rude!

Lack of accountability of EU Commission
How accountable is the UK's civil service?

Finerumpus what do you mean by 'fortress europe'? And do you mind explaining the 'common purpose' one a bit more? I can only see Brexit as finishing off any sense of shared purpose at the moment.

Certainly it will be interesting to see what happens when the EU can't be blamed for things.

The thing that really worries me is that Brexit will worsen the social care crisis and we will be more and more unable to fill care jobs and unable to care for vulnerable people. If we are poorer...then what? Who is going to care for people and who will pay for it? No-one.