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Brexit

Westministenders: Slow News Fake News

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2019 18:36

Things have been slow whilst we are in proroguation, ahead of next weeks Queen's Speech and the EU summit.

We've been in full spin mode, from the likes of the far right and an unnamed source at No.10.

People seem to be waking up to the reality that its highly unlikely we will get a deal now, unless something significant. And No.10 has worked out the NI problem. FINALLY.

Anyway, if you have a little time this week and you are interested in the history of where technology change and fake news meet and how where we are now is merely things repeating themselves, Ian Hislop's Fake News: A True History, is essential viewing.
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m00095hv/ian-hislops-fake-news-a-true-history

I really feel strongly this is stuff that should be being taught in schools somehow as its what protects us from extremism.

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RedToothBrush · 10/10/2019 00:35

Also the active betrayal of the kurds by the American president isn't something the UK should be ignoring...

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RedToothBrush · 10/10/2019 00:40

BCF in answer to your question I believe deal has to be a deal not a potential deal.

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BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2019 00:55

I think so too,
but I still suspect BJ will try that tack, even if only to further ramp up GE Brexiter support with a "People vs Parliament & courts"

I also think Cummings wants a purged & fully hard right Tory party in the next HoC

and of course any promise from BJ to the Tory moderates - that No Deal would not be in the manifesto - is worthless
The lying weasel probably went straight afterwards to tell the ERG that it would be in the manifesto

RedToothBrush · 10/10/2019 00:57

I've been worried since the failed Turkish coup but this thread says a lot too.

Jasmine Mujanovic @jasminmuj
I've been thinking all day about the now almost entirely forgotten assassination of the Russian Amb. to Turkey in 2016. Even at the time, it felt very strongly to me like a moment of great unraveling, the loudest shriek in what was already a period of cacophonous history.

This was Dec. 2016 - after Brexit, after the Trump elxn. To many it was a weird footnote in an already long, cruel, and brutal war in Syria. But it weighed on me like some omen. It was Yeats; "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world".

Maybe it's bc as a Bosnian events at the supposed "periphery" have always seemed as important, maybe even more important to me than the grand machinations at the "center"; likely bc my people, my family too have died and suffered in "obscure", misunderstood lands like Syria.

The onset of Turkey's assault on the Kurds in NE Syria today has occupied more of the collective attn in the West, and rightly so. Many are now warning, brooding, hinting at how severe, how cataclysmic all of this will likely become; more death, more destruction, more exile.

I'm not supposed to say this as a "social scientist" but it all feels so inevitable now, the terrible, suffocating weight of the coming butchery. The U.S., EU, the West, the international community have had nearly a decade to commit to a real policy for Syria. We chose not to.

Syria is the greatest moral, ethical, & political catastrophe of the 21st century. It will shame & stain our entire generation. And it should. This is not merely a betrayal of the Kurds, or of the Syrian civilians; it is a betrayal of humanity itself, of civilization.

Scholars will debate the tactics, the grand strategies, what the wise men in the important capitals knew, thought, anticipated, bargained for. It will be hard to capture the harrowing sorrow and the shame of it all though. This is history as a great, collective sin. /xxx

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BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2019 00:58

I'm still concerned by that BJ-Trump phone call in which, so Trump claims,
BJ has promised the Uk will do "many things" for the US Hmm

Other than lending troops as cannonfodder, or wreaking mischief in the EU, I'm not sure what he would want us to do.

Nothing that we should be doing, I'm sure

BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2019 01:05

Terrible to admit, but with so much else going on, I'd completely forgotten about the assassination of the Russian Ambassador to Turkey

Unless he'd angered Putin in some way, I was expecting serious repercussions, Putin slapping them down, but then I forgot

Putin obviously supports Assad, because of the important Russian naval base, but what is his attitude to Erdogan / Turkey ?
Turkey is in NATO, but it's been a while since it looked like it played well with the others.

Also, don't we have some planes serviced there, because we bought them from the US and that's what the US decided ?
I hope we have some alternative arrangements, if need be.

What a mess
And Trump makes every flashpoint that he goes near, much worse

pumkinseason · 10/10/2019 01:06

Trump is coming under heavy criticism from the evangelical right in the USA for what it is worth.
People who are usually uncritical supporters.
This news agenda does push the Biden impeachment sandal further down the headlines of course.

pumkinseason · 10/10/2019 01:08

What Trump really wants is cooked up fraud charges for Hunter Biden. If the UK could find them in Ukraine's backyard for him.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/10/2019 01:12

The Kurd tragedy in the Indy
Brexit dilemmas in Telegraph & i

Most papers seem determined to avoid both topics on the front page

Westministenders: Slow News Fake News
Westministenders: Slow News Fake News
Westministenders: Slow News Fake News
mathanxiety · 10/10/2019 05:03

I suspect the decision by Trump to abandon America's Kurdish allies to the Turks will be the death knell of his presidency.

Only the most moronic of his support in the Senate could possibly stand behind him on this. Certainly nobody with foreign affairs or armed forces experience or knowledge, or anyone representing a state with an armed forces population in it, or anyone serving on an armed forces committee, could possibly see any good in this monumentally evil decision. It may well be that he will be punished for this even though the official grounds are different.

It will be interesting to see if the impeachment inquiry gathers momentum now. The GOP could quietly support it while still making the right anti-impeachment noises, albeit subdued. While a 2/3 majority in the Senate is required to impeach, it's possible there are a few GOP senators who are close to retirement who might make this their last hurrah, while others (in more liberal states or representing armed forces states) could easily wrap themselves in the flag and profess sincere horror at the shakedown of Ukraine and get away with it next time they run for office. In fact, in more liberal states, they might even win votes for that. The numbers might be there.

While the impeachment process drags on, the fight over Trump's tax returns will also drag on indefinitely. His lawyers are experts at 'motion practice' - the tactic whereby they file motion after motion, quibbling details, arguing arcane issues, etc., in order to delay the final reckoning. This is how Trump grinds down people he owes money to (he has the deep pockets needed to keep the lawyers busy whereas the vast majority of people who had him as a client are forced to walk away). The grinding down by means of motion practice will only serve to keep the issue front and centre this time though. Hopefully it can be exploited by the Democrats.

Meanwhile, election 2020 looms.

DoctorTwo · 10/10/2019 05:13

Well, nobody could have predicted that Erdogan would attack the Kurds after the US troops had been removed... Oh.

Wonder how much it took to bribe Trump to go against US national interest.

mathanxiety · 10/10/2019 06:11

BCF I suspect Trump is trying to win Erdogan back from Russia by letting the Turks run amok among the Kurds.

Erdogan and Putin had developed ties despite two incidents. One was the shooting down in late 2015 by Turkey of a Russian Su-24 jet in Turkish airspace and subsequent murder by rebels on the ground of the pilot who had ejected, at a time when Turkey had tightened rules on incursions and operations against groups in Syria favoured by Turkey (during the Obama presidency).

The incident provoked a serious diplomatic incident and cooling of relations between Russia and Turkey, with Turkey eventually backed into a corner by Russian economic threats, by the deployment of missiles in northern Syria by Russia, by the breaking off of military ties, and also by Russia freely bombing Syrian Turkmen in the northern region of Syria, which Turkey had warned Russia not to do. Russia publicly considered that Turkey's hostile actions had been designed to appease America. Six months after the incident Turkey had completely changed its tune, and began blaming the Gulen Movement, for reasons of its own.

The other incident was the assassination of the Russian ambassador to Turkey in late 2016. Again, 'the usual suspects' were blamed by Turkey (i.e. the Gulen Movement) but Russia seemed willing to go along with this accusation, for whatever reason. It could be that ISIS was responsible, or some faction of Syrian Turks friendly to ISIS, or it could have been some entity trying to disrupt the warming relations between Russia and Turkey (some entity that wanted Turkey in its own sphere of influence, or some entity that wanted to cast Turkey as hostile to Russia).

mathanxiety · 10/10/2019 06:13

*By 2016/7 and ongoing to now, Erdogan and Putin had developed ties...

JeSuisPoulet · 10/10/2019 06:28

I'm assuming UK's 'many things' we do for US will be aiding in smear campaigns and finding dirt on Trump's opponents, as well as some tactical help in Turkey. We are their lapdog desperate for a trade deal after all.

I gather Aaron Banks has turned? I still remember the long interview with him in which he laughingly recounted the morning after the ref when he and Farage saw a man desperately removing his savings from a cashpoint - Oh how they laughed and jeered at him, how very hilarious it was to see! Angry I wonder why he suddenly cares...seems to me he is now feeling that man's concern and maybe it is our turn for a hollow laugh.

Anyone pick up on the report that UK productivity fell sharply from April again?

DGRossetti · 10/10/2019 06:48

I think the "many things" the UK will do for the US may include shutting up that annoying family whose son was having problems ("It happens": D. Trump) driving on the right side of the road. Only he wasn't, and it was the "diplomatic immunity" protected airhead that was - and killed him.

Sadly incidents like this have more chance of swaying people who want to feel US cock up the UK arse than anything happening in Syria (because, well ....)

thewomanontheshore · 10/10/2019 07:01

.

DGRossetti · 10/10/2019 07:11

This US Special Forces soldier wanted me to know: "The Kurds are sticking by us. No other partner I have ever dealt with would stand by us."

Shades of the Polish during WW2.

It's not impossible that Trump is somehow hearing all about Turkey, and thinks thanksgiving is early this year.

Still, as per the article about losing access to the security infrastructure of the EU, I'm sure this isn't a bad time, and that any itinerant ISIS operatives wouldn't be so unsporting as to take advantage and head for the UK ?

BercowsFlyingFlamingo · 10/10/2019 07:21

@boatyardblues he doesn't like his photo being taken so it was quite a disdainful look he gave me. He's not even my cat, he borrows us as gets lots of fuss.

JeSuisPoulet · 10/10/2019 07:26

DGR you are likely right there - last I read she wasn't even on the list for diplomatic immunity Hmm

Still suspect usual players such as Nix will have been maneuvered by 'sources at No 10' to help our friends over the pond...

ContinuityError · 10/10/2019 07:29

Not enough Oriental PMKs.

Westministenders: Slow News Fake News
JeSuisPoulet · 10/10/2019 07:31

How long would it take to get from Turkey to UK? Seems perfect timing to me DGR Angry. Just what the Leave side need to keep the momentum and just in time for our wide open mess of a border on 31st. If we are helping US in this we need an investigation.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 10/10/2019 07:38

I am so angry about Syria. Time and again the Kurdish people get shitted on. Angry

JeSuisPoulet · 10/10/2019 07:38

Taking back control...EU driving permit UK style

thecatfromjapan · 10/10/2019 07:47

I feel the same, Kitten.

ContinuityError · 10/10/2019 07:52

Sally Davies, Chief Medical Officer, just on R4 Today saying that she can’t guarantee there won’t be medicine and device shortages in the event of No Deal and that (unequivocally) lives are at risk.

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