Westministenders: Slow News Fake News

[RedToothBrush]

Things have been slow whilst we are in proroguation, ahead of next weeks Queen's Speech and the EU summit.

We've been in full spin mode, from the likes of the far right and an unnamed source at No.10.

People seem to be waking up to the reality that its highly unlikely we will get a deal now, unless something significant. And No.10 has worked out the NI problem. FINALLY.

Anyway, if you have a little time this week and you are interested in the history of where technology change and fake news meet and how where we are now is merely things repeating themselves, Ian Hislop's Fake News: A True History, is essential viewing.
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m00095hv/ian-hislops-fake-news-a-true-history

I really feel strongly this is stuff that should be being taught in schools somehow as its what protects us from extremism.

I miss Red. While I feel she's overly pessimistic sometimes, her analysis is peerless. Hope she's doing ok and not burning the midnight oil.

Brexit registers only as an annoyance to most, a "isn't that shit over with yet?" sense.
This with bells on
Which is why another referendum would make it worse not better

We have a representative democracy.
They get paid to do the job.
Let them do it.

The DUP are irrelevant now since Bozo took the whip from 21 of his own MPs

Next Saturday will be "interesting"
and I'm seeing Jonathan Pie that night as well !!

Speak of the devil!!!

Jess Phillips MP @jessphillips
The women's PLP have asked to meet with party bosses over the issue which appears to be targeting women. We warned this would happen I'm not glad we were right.

To all of us....

As said above, no one wants their lives threatened by anything, so the status quo is the way to go now I think.

Full on Brexit sounds delightful doesn't it? Tongue in cheek there.

Those who might benefit have done so now. Billions of pounds spent already. Qui Bono?

As to The rest of us, no way would we ever benefit.

I also think there is a greater than 50% chance of the talks breaking down, so this is probably all academic.

My local Labour MP was reselected. Leave strong hold. He voted Remain.

Which is why another referendum would make it worse not better

I disagree. I can't decide whether I have more faith in people or if I'm more cynical and believe most people are politically apathetic, maybe both, but I think it's catastrophizing to suggest a second ref would be a disaster. I think if sold as revoke is the only way to make it stop, but we need the people's consent to do it, it'd be ok.

That's grim, red

Apart from the disgrace of targeting women MPs, it continues the mess that Labour has got itself into and makes a hard right Tory win more likely

If Labour seriously want to win, or even be the largest party, they need to stop fighting each other so publicly

I suspect quite a few want to see the Tories blow up after No Deal - Brexit is a poisoned chalice -
and become unelectable for a generation, so that Labour have time to transform the UK

BCF see above from DUP. EU will be paying careful attention to parliamentary arithmetic and not conceding any more than absolutely necessary.

Mship That message would be v difficult, if Farage & the Tory right are telling voters to abstain
and promising the next Tory govt will Invoke all over again

Do you expect BJ to suddently agree to a PV ?
btw, I can just about see him going for a PV of WA vs Revoke - in fact that might even be his GE manifesto, if Tory moderates won't sign up to No Deal

Aargh, it's not the despair, it;s the hope that kills you.

Well, I think it's clear by now I agree with you, MShip.

And why can I never get the ** bold to work

Mship I hope the EU stick to the red lines they had with May's WA - that scuppers most of the hard right plans.

It depends how much they are prepared to sacrifice for Ireland , because it definitely would be a blow to EU business if UK business doesn't have to follow the basic minimum regs

However, if they are serious about even agreeing a text before 31 October, then imo it would have to be minor modifications of an existing draft agreement.

You have to do and at the end of each line not at the end of the para.

That message would be v difficult, if Farage & the Tory right are telling voters to abstain and promising the next Tory govt will Invoke all over again

I think many of those voters will break for a WA vote, because they are not going to buy that strategy (they don't trust the elite) and will come to the conclusion that if they want Brexit, this is their only option. Just my opinion though, not backed up by any polling.

Hasenstein Sorry to be more pessimistic, but I made a terrible typo - I shouldn't type while eating my tea

btw, I can just about see him going for a PV of WA vs Revoke* No Deal*
< i.e. a PV on what type of leave >

- in fact that might even be his GE manifesto, if Tory moderates won't sign up to No Deal

I hope the EU stick to the red lines they had with May's WA - that scuppers most of the hard right plans

BCF I hope so too. I think they will. They've been very very disciplined so far, to fall at the last hurdle would be terrible.

still agree with cat and everybody else who is agreeing with cat - which is currently a lot of people.

Whilst there is nothing in the polls for remain outside of the margin of error - the poll of polls showing consistently that support for remain is greater than support for leave over a matter of years is perhaps a better basis than a one off comres polls that asked a series of increasingly frothy questions.

But I don't want a PV as a remain stitch up. If the W.A wins 52:48 then it wins 52:48. That's it. I don't understand all the 'what if it's still close?' questions. If it's still close then the winner wins - same as last time. And if the losing side wish to continue to campaign and change minds that is their prerogative and democratic right - but for now parliament will have a direction they can take, and a mandate to do it.

The WA as it stands is not a 'deal' and in many respects it is non negotiable since it is a summary of the legal 'rules'. the PD that will be needed (as yet not discussed by anyone) is required to define which of the aspects of the WA will be enacted, so as I keep saying, it is the RULES of the game but NOT the game itself. The PD, when written by the UK NOT the EU, will define the drgree of the 'departure' of the UK so it can be as minimal (remain or a form of BRINO, or it could also be a hard 'balls out' Brexit) possibly already known as 'no deal', but is simply all the departure mechanisms outlined in the WA but happening practically overnight.
Getting from 100 miles per hour to stationery is 'simple and painless' if you do it over a period of say 2 minutes. If you do it 'instantly' by hitting a concrete wall, it is very painful and usually fatal. The WA describes the legal processes, and it is up to the UK and the PD to determine if it happens overnight on 31 October, or by signing the WA the UK is simply accepting the rules, but then has the option of a couple of years or more tpo 'wind down' to whatever rules the UK wants to continue with the EU (or to drop).
So simple, even a meercat can understand it. Why can't the UK citizens and HoC, understand such a simple plan?
So, if you are playing a game of cricket, you have rules, admittedly a bit obscure and complicated. Turning up with rifles and shooting the opposing team may 'win' the match' but it ain't cricket and could be deemed to be cheating.

The EU will stick to all red lines - there's no reason for them to cave at all, it's Johnson who is desperate to avoid an extension. I still believe that the EU thinks brexit might not happen if they can keep their nerve and that would be their ultimate prize, worth far more than compromising to get shot of the UK faster.

Interesting background about what happened to start the latest talks:

Brexit breakthrough: Injury time winner, or fatal gambit?

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/1011/1082783-brexit-connolly/

the breakthrough was not anticipated and had pierced the mood of gloom that had settled over Brussels.
......
On Tuesday night Simon Coveney made an eyebrow raising dash to Brussels to meet Mr Barnier, having been involved in a budget-related news conference as late as 4.30pm.

If an idea was going to be hatched in Dublin it would have to be cleared through the Task Force first, to avoid the perception that Ireland was negotiating bilaterally with the UK.

"It was all sychronised with the EU and the Task Force," says a senior EU figure on Thursday night after the Johnson-Varadkar meeting.
....
He [Barnier] rejected the idea that he was recommending a "tunnel", the secretive, leak-free process which heralded the final breakthrough in the initial Withdrawal Agreement negotiations one year ago.

Instead, he suggested that the new proposals were simply worthy of exploration.
"The Commission wanted to see how far it was possible to go," said one source close to the negotiations, "and then we’ll see".

However, Barnier delivered two key messages:
the UK had moved on customs and had moved on consent, the two most difficult aspects of the British proposals.
....
However, it will be politically perilous for Mr Johnson, not least because he resigned as foreign secretary over a similar plan for the whole of the UK.
If the DUP rejects it, the European Research Group may follow suit, and Mr Johnson might need the support of up to 70 Labour MPs.

Anyway, simply accepting the WA as it stands would be a damn good start, as it allows discussions on the PD to commence. As I have said the UK can still be 'in' the EU' or Out (leave) if it so decides. I suppose some argumentative typpes will now shout that it is neither as good as 'remain' and is not (yet) Leave, but it does pave the way to an orderly Brexit where no one need die unnecessarily through the UK governments shambolic leaving the EU plans.

Of course the definition of 'Brexit' has still not been properly defined, there are still about 17.4 million versions. they can't all be 'correct'.
Make your mind up what you want, not some airy fairy notion of stuff yoiu don't want.

"if the losing side wish to continue to campaign and change minds that is their prerogative and democratic righ"

pretzels If Revoke win against the WA - especially on a low turnout after Farage & the Tory right have organised a boycott -
then I expect the only campaign will be a GE one, with Tories promising to Invoke again immediately

I don't expect a future ref

• hopefully all parties have learned to avoid UK-wide referendums ever again.

(Scotland, Wales & NI are totally different cases, since their Parliaments / Assemblies don't have the power to make the relevant decisions)