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Brexit

Westministenders: Slow News Fake News

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2019 18:36

Things have been slow whilst we are in proroguation, ahead of next weeks Queen's Speech and the EU summit.

We've been in full spin mode, from the likes of the far right and an unnamed source at No.10.

People seem to be waking up to the reality that its highly unlikely we will get a deal now, unless something significant. And No.10 has worked out the NI problem. FINALLY.

Anyway, if you have a little time this week and you are interested in the history of where technology change and fake news meet and how where we are now is merely things repeating themselves, Ian Hislop's Fake News: A True History, is essential viewing.
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m00095hv/ian-hislops-fake-news-a-true-history

I really feel strongly this is stuff that should be being taught in schools somehow as its what protects us from extremism.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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QueenOfThorns · 09/10/2019 20:54

Hope is in the air, changes are afoot, and for once the elite oriental cats on this thread are outnumbered! The tabbies are taking over Grin

DGRossetti · 09/10/2019 20:56

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/other/the-european-union-has-abandoned-indulgence-of-uk-delusions-and-you-cannot-blame-them

prospectmagazine.co.uk
The European Union has abandoned indulgence of UK delusions, and you cannot blame them
Jonathan Lis
7-8 minutes
The UK’s international reputation has never been lower, and its government has never been so utterly discredited

by Jonathan Lis / October 9, 2019 / Leave a comment

Prime Minister Boris Johnson and European Council President Donald Tusk at the G7 earlier this year. Photo: Andrew Parsons/PA Wire/PA Images

If the diplomatic gloves were ever really on, it is safe to say they have now been wrenched off. In an extraordinary week, Downing Street has issued a briefing explicitly threatening our closest allies with punishment, the prime minister has advertised the fact he intends to break the law, No 10 has attacked and smeared Angela Merkel, and European Council president Donald Tusk has openly berated Boris Johnson for playing games at the expense of his people’s livelihoods and security—and it’s still only Wednesday.

The briefing released on Monday night to the Spectator’s James Forsyth had all the hallmarks of the PM’s chief adviser, Dominic Cummings. It discussed the very normal ambition to explicitly thwart the will of parliament by not requesting a Brexit delay; almost hilariously declared that any EU member state which declined to throw us off the cliff would go to the “bottom of the queue” for cooperation; and implicitly warned that the UK would destabilise or sabotage the EU’s routine operation. It was an unprecedented outburst from a government which knows it has been cornered and outwitted. Tusk’s subsequent rebuke to Johnson that “what’s at stake is not winning some stupid blame game” revealed a near-reciprocal, if rather more justified, level of hostility from the Brussels camp. But it is also a side show. The language is not the key here. It is the change in strategy.

Put simply, the EU has abandoned its indulgence of the UK’s delusions. The Council, Commission and member states are publicly puncturing the UK’s hubris, abandoning their diplomatic politesse and issuing necessary home truths.

A key turning point came in further unattributed Downing Street briefings following Johnson’s call with Merkel on Tuesday. According to the note, Merkel had declared a deal “overwhelmingly unlikely,” remarked that Germany could leave the customs union “no problem” but the island of Ireland was a special case, and suggested Northern Ireland would not be able to leave the customs union without Dublin’s approval. The Downing Street source supplied their own gloss that the call was a “useful clarifying moment,” that a deal was “essentially impossible not just now but ever,” and for good measure added that Merkel and her colleagues were “willing to torpedo the Good Friday Agreement.”

Set aside for a moment the naked projection about “torpedoing” the Good Friday Agreement. Overlook, too, the absurd language about Germany leaving the customs union “no problem,” which Merkel would clearly never have used. Downing Street was right about one thing here. Merkel’s general thrust—which Berlin has not denied—was indeed a clarifying moment. To preserve an open border and a fragile peace process, Northern Ireland must match the EU’s tariff arrangements indefinitely. This was, in fact, clarified a mere 22 months ago in the joint report of December 2017, agreed by the UK government, which engineered the backstop mechanism in the first place. The report specified tariff alignment “now or in the future [to] support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 [Good Friday] Agreement.”

Germany would, of course, never leave the customs union, but if it did, that would not jeopardise western Europe’s most fragile peace. The UK’s full departure would. If Merkel’s overall message was reported accurately, she was simply stating the reality as it has always existed: the whole UK can stay in the customs union or Great Britain alone can leave it, but the German government will follow the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland and safeguard its security even if the British government will not.

The backstop was always going to be indefinite. It would last until unicorns came to replace it, and Dublin was satisfied that those unicorns were not in fact ponies to which Downing Street had attached traffic cones. Call that a “temporary” arrangement if you like, but you would be a brave gambler to place a bet on it. Theresa May consistently lied about the temporary nature of the backstop, and convinced many Tories, but it changed nothing then and changes nothing now. The alternative arrangements to replace the backstop have never been tested, and they will almost certainly not be good enough in the recognisable future.

The Merkel and Tusk incidents together illustrate something important that has been spelled out repeatedly over the last three years but, it seems, not sufficiently loudly. It is we who voted to leave. That was marketed as a request for autonomy. Now, the EU will duly look out for its own interests, not the interests of the UK government. The internal make-up of the UK is not a matter for the EU anymore. Nor is our ability to strike trade deals with Australia. The EU is, however, concerned with Ireland’s security and prosperity, and with the cohesive functioning of its single market. In the UK government’s final throes of cakeism, it affects to be deeply affronted that the EU is not still treating it with the care of a member state while simultaneously demanding to be cut loose in three weeks’ time.

As the EU unravels British delusions, the UK government simply doubles down on them. The Downing Street line on Tuesday that a deal is “essentially impossible” shows how the Brexit rhetoric has descended into outright preposterousness. Not even the most hardline mainstream Brexiters have argued that we can live without a deal with the EU for all time. The EU is our largest trading partner. We depend on cross-Channel supply chains for our food, medicines and general industry. That level of integration cannot be summarily replaced or wished away. If a deal with the EU is “essentially impossible,” then so is British daily life. The only impossible thing has always been the UK’s fantasy that it can get exactly what it wants.

Whenever we think British politics can sink no further, it seeks to surprise us. The fundamental problem has never been in Brussels, or Dublin, or Berlin, but in London. Our reputation has never been lower and our government never more discredited. But the real news this week is not that the British government is being led by nationalist infants. It is that the EU has stopped babysitting them. With three weeks to go until crash-out day, it is not before time.

FMFL · 09/10/2019 21:11

PMK

TheABC · 09/10/2019 21:11

Beautiful cats!

There is definitely change in the air and about bloody time too.

I am supposed to be going on a family holiday on the 19th. I am now looking into cloning procedures and train timetables instead...

pumkinseason · 09/10/2019 21:12

PMK

ListeningQuietly · 09/10/2019 21:19

Cat : died a long time ago but still viscerally missed every day
I'd give any politician 30 seconds against him

  • he'd win
Westministenders: Slow News Fake News
BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2019 21:22

All cats (& dogs) gratefully received, arse, twix
and you both have lovely overlords

< waves to Geist >
I hope all is well with you in Germany

GingerPCatt · 09/10/2019 21:22

PMK. Not my cat obviously but a lion at the natural history museum in Tring. I think his expression says it all.

Westministenders: Slow News Fake News
BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2019 21:28

He looks a tough guy, Listening
Sometimes a particular pet leaves pawprints in your heart for many years

A handsome feline, with impressive weapons, pumpkin

BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2019 21:38

"does that mean we’re not leaving on the 31st if they’re talking about election manifestos?"

best It means that it is quite possible / likely.
However, nooone knows, including BJ.

"Why has this never been mentioned before ... "

Dusty The Remain lead been reported all along, but tucked away on an inside page
This report hasn't been very prominent either
We've posted here about these polls all along, but they don't get much publicity elsewhere.

However, switching from a narrow majority on one side to a narrow majority on the other isn't that dramatic and we can expect Leave to use similar tactics to last time.
So, any PV could be a knife-edge - or maybe not if it is Remain vs a specific Leave, not a generic / fantasy one

ListeningQuietly · 09/10/2019 21:40

ginger
I took my kids to Tring and .....

Westministenders: Slow News Fake News
HesterThrale · 09/10/2019 21:46

Disgusted at the BBC, but maybe not surprised.

Jo Maugham QC
@JolyonMaugham
Absolutely despicable of
@bbcquestiontime
A fortnight after Hartley Brewer published the address of my family home, in a week in which she knew I had received death threats, our notional public service broadcaster puts her on its flagship.
Shame on it. Shame on it.

mobile.twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1181981966276673539

yolofish · 09/10/2019 21:48

Turkey have now sent land troops in according to BBC. Am having a FB 'debate' with an English acquaintance who has been settled in Turkey for 40 years bar a recent 2 year stay here. Erdogan is just trying to resettle the Kurdish refugees from Turkey and provide them with a safe space apparently. We disagree; a German friend (who I think is quite high up in politics there) is currently eviscerating her argument, so politely.

Here's a dog:

Westministenders: Slow News Fake News
Dusty01 · 09/10/2019 21:50

I’ve only recently started reading these threads BigChoc. And only recently been interested in Brexit - so have missed those polls and reports.

I wondered whether that news had been hidden or suddenly invented. But thankfully that doesn’t seem to be the case, from what you’re saying.

prettybird · 09/10/2019 21:51

Regal cats taking my place on the sofa Hmm

Westministenders: Slow News Fake News
TatianaLarina · 09/10/2019 21:51

Not more cats...

BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2019 21:53

www.theguardian.com/business/2019/sep/17/britons-are-still-worse-off-than-in-2008-new-research-claims

Britons are £128 a year worse off on average than they were in 2008,
according to a report that reveals household incomes were hit harder in the wake of the financial crash than official figures have revealed.

Westministenders: Slow News Fake News
ListeningQuietly · 09/10/2019 21:54

Dusty
The problem with polls (and I say this as sombody who is selected for YouGov most weeks) is that the margin of error is +-3%
AND
the answer MASSIVELY depends on the question

I had one recently where I was asked the same thing in three ways
and many folks will have given different answers
or gone for "don't know" which gets excluded from all results (including elections)

BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2019 21:55

pretty Regal cats taking my their rightful place on the sofa Wink

ListeningQuietly · 09/10/2019 21:55

DONT KNOW = DONT VOTE
so ignore them

Hoooo · 09/10/2019 21:59

I have a great deal of respect for the posters on this thread, have been posting for the past 2.5 years and credit you all with keeping me relatively sane but...really? What has changed? What are you seeing/reading?
If anything the language and rhetoric used has got worse, not better?
Bojo and cummings seem to simply not care. At all. About anything. Including the rule of law.
I see no light at the end of the tunnel...REALLY hope you're right!

NoWordForFluffy · 09/10/2019 22:03

DONT KNOW = DONT VOTE

Nope. It means - for some, like me - that they're waiting to see who best to vote for, tactically. I'd think in these bizarre times there are plenty others like me.

GeistohneGrenzen · 09/10/2019 22:03

Thanks and a wave back to BCF Smile but unless there's another Geist you must be thinking of my Doppelgänger! I'm very firmly in the UK and likely to remain here Sad. Recently had expedited eye surgery so at least that distracted my attention away from Brexit woes for a second or two... I'm old but I can cope and am just so angry and sad for all the vulnerable people who will suffer if the waftings of hope shown in some recent posts here aren't fulfilled.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/10/2019 22:06

Î hope this is another of those misreported phone calls BJ keeps having .... Confused

Eamon Javerss@EamonJavers* (W Post)

President Trump says he just had an “extended conversation” with British PM Boris Johnson,
adding “they will be doing a number of things for us.”

< are those military things, or just stirring up trouble ?>

prettybird · 09/10/2019 22:09

Just had a fearful thought: the Saturday sitting on the 19th has been assumed to be because we're declaring war on ourselves of the Brexit crisis Sad Given that the last 3 of the last 4 Saturday sitting have been to do with armed conflicts, what if this is to do with Turkey going into Syria to attack the Kurds Shock