Westminstenders: Pro Rogues

[RedToothBrush]

The Pro Rogues plan to prorogue again this week.

The Queen might be challenged to sack Johnson. Or he might be forced to extend.

It depends on which newspaper you read. Either way it strikes you that no one really knows what's going to happen...

My Ethics and Law tutor laughed at me when I said UN would be dissolved by Trump

Agree Red it is just like the crap "big reveal" in a drama - recently had this with BBC's The Capture; people can't seriously not have noticed the bus and lorry in Ep 1 and thought "that would be a good place to cut footage" . But then, the referendum...

I've not been around much so am struggling to keep up with the threads - think I have missed some bad news along the way for some posters? for anyone in need.

I've had some positive news this week; friend and her mum are now back on their bipolar meds. Unfortunately they takes appx a month to get back into the system properly but at least she should be on the mend and hopefully released from hospital once they kick in. She's had a terrible time in there and has become increasingly withdrawn with violent patients and no TV as it was smashed early on but we are all hopeful it won't be long until she is home.

My friend who was about to be evicted by the council has had a letter confirming they admit much of the wear and tear of the property is, in fact, because it is 22 years old and not her fault at all. However this just means she isn't going to be turfed out with her kids, not that they will fix the jammed back door, dripping taps, broken kitchen cupboards or rotting carpet but again, it's something.

I'm not completely convinced we should be celebrating the fact our country led us to either of the above, but given the scant pickings, I'm all in.

What I don’t understand is that Labour will vote for a GE if we get an extension. But conservatives are now going to fight GE on a no deal platform....
All polls point to them winning, so won’t we just no deal straight after an election?
Surely a new referendum would be better?
Leave no deal, leave with a deal, remain.....

Sorry if this has been posted before, I’ve not read the whole thread.

Chicken - many Corbynites are under the delusion that because they did better than expected in 2017 the same will happen in 2019. They genuinely think that a Corbyn majority is possible. They are all over twitter, and I think they block and mute so many saner voices on the left that they live in a little corbynite bubble where the U.K. is gagging for a a Corbyn government.

I don't think it's impossible that Corbyn will outperform his polling but a Labour majority is really in the realms of delusion right now.

Maybe we should like at why so many people (millions) would support the Tories on a no deal platform.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-more-voters-hear-no-deal-warnings-the-more-they-support-it-d5stnllch

Good article on why voters will not heed the warnings of not deal’.

Basically it’s back to patriotism and that we will always find an way’.

Worth a read if you can get behind the paywall.

But the aversion to anti-no-deal messages is about more than distrust. Where there is support for no deal in the country, it is fused to a deep sense of patriotism. A feeling that we are British, we have endured so much and thrived, of course we will be okay if we leave without a deal.

taking on someone’s patriotism is unadvisable. And, the more one belittles this view or attempts to write it off as backward-looking, the more it is entrenched.

Don’t normally copy and paste but thought those two paragraphs key. Guy who wrote the article is a YouGov pollster.

This morning we have Arron Banks uturning, but the damage has already been done and they well knew that.

Also I'm seeing a fair bit on twitter about RemainNow or RemainerForNow from former Leavers for a variety of reasons.

I am going to echo very strongly what DGR said about giving the benefit of the doubt to any Leavers or Former Leavers at this point.

This is a crucial moment that Remainers are mindful of the psychology of changing minds and how getting into a blame game or accusations of 'Well you shouldn't have stood next to...' or 'Well you were stupid to trust...' or any other such crap is shooting yourself in the foot and being a dick.

Don't engage in it. Remainers have made themselves out to be the grown ups over Brexit, so we need to demonstrate it.

I'm also conscious of people who are LeaversNow or at least LeaversForNow, so don't get carried away at the idea that suddenly Remain is getting more support. (see @rolandmcs for more reflection on this) The situation is more complex than that. However I do think things are more finely balanced than is realised and there could be a tipping point in public opinion coming.

Everyone has a role to play in that, if it's the case.

I do think the next couple of weeks are going to be really bumpy and unpredictable so can I encourage everyone to remind as level headed on here as possible even though I know there is a huge amount of anger.

I also stress that the tactic of extreme leavers at this point is to deliberately drive polarisation and anger because it feeds entrenchment which makes any sort of deal harder. That's what yesterday was about in no small part. It's designed to rile Remainers and get them wound up.

As the saying goes, don't rise to the bait. See it for what it is and what it's aiming to do rather than taking it at face value.

I'm worried about the next couple of weeks (and the current antics of Extinction Rebellion are not going to help matters). But focus on where the decision making is happening not the side shows and attention seeking.

See I don’t get why they would. I voted remain but if we left with a deal that’d be ok.
I don’t see why people would want to take a risk with no deal. It just seems madness.

Maybe we should like at why so many people (millions) would support the Tories on a no deal platform.

Because the alternative is the Magic Marxist and his extreme policies. Yes, I know you love them, but most people find Labour’s planned confiscations, abolitions, and crushing taxes to be extreme. If someone like Blair were Labour leader, millions of people could safely lend their votes to Labour to save our EU membership, secure in the knowledge that they wouldn’t be robbed blind as a result. The Tories wouldn’t have a chance...

I stopped reading at “magic marxist”.

I stopped at Cend.......

I don't know why Cend thinks Corbyn is popular here.

If there was a referendum before an election and Remain won on say 53%, a party could then win an election on 35% with no deal in it's manifesto. It's all such a mess.

I don't know why Cend thinks Corbyn is popular here.

Just your common or garden shit stirrer. I don't even read his posts.

This morning we have Arron Banks uturning

I agree with you about the damage being done, but it's unusual to see Banks and Wigmore on the opposite sides of a difference of opinion.

There was also some pushback from surprising quarters yesterday, from people whose modus operandi is usually doubling down.

Not how she would assume that Tory actually has the magic money tree that labour doesn’t. Tory’s policies sound quite leftish if you ask me- spend here, spend there, nhs, school, police etc
Then you read the IFS report that says we’ll be in recession for decades and we’ll need tax increases and deep austerity to get out of it, and wonder....

red I think your stance on leavers is admirable.
But rather harder to support when you have loved ones who might die because of the people who voted for this shit (or whstever the fucking hell they thought they were voting for...)
When you deal, weekly, with vulnerable people who might die because of the people who voted for this shit.
When you have spent months sourcing meds for family members from overseas because of the people who voted for this shit.
And then they - the architects and supporters of such misery - blithely bleat about how sorry they are or "not in my name". Ffs. They showed no such issue with Farage and Leave.eu bile and hate filled posters and ads when they put their little cross on the ballot paper, did they?
So.
You be admirable.
I'm going to stay fucking angry.
K?

"Yes, I know you love them,"

Then you haven't been reading any of the threads, just posting

Corbyn has maybe 2 supporters here
The rest of us just say he is better than the utter disaster of No Deal

Think about that:

Your party has created such a disaster with Brexit that people here - centrists and left / right of centre - who have been posting for the last 3 years how much we despise Corbyn ....

would now choose him over your party's Brexit

I'm also conscious of people who are LeaversNow or at least LeaversForNow, so don't get carried away at the idea that suddenly Remain is getting more support. (see @rolandmcs for more reflection on this)

I think Roland is uncharacteristically wrong, or at least missing some nuance (and is doubling down on his original error in an unhelpful way).

The leaver nows on social media are almost invariably fake. I suspect that Leaver nows and Remainer nows are two quite different groups. Leaver nows are in my experience largely people who "just want it over with" and think Brexit is the way to do that.

"Other such crap"
Huh.
I'll keep that in mind when dealing with my foodbank clients tomorrow.
Once I've figured out how and where to store more food in case of no deal.

Magic Marxist or Scruffy Anarchist?

Think I'd rather have a GNU.

Hocco I get the anger. But the way to do anything for all those people is to turn this around. Which will be extremely tough, though I hope not impossible. But anger at other voters won't do it. Use the anger on Johnson and his fellow liars.

chicken, misti The problem with a PV before a GE is - how ?

The chances of the Rebel Alliance electing a new PM and holding together for the necessary months ...
are much much slimmer than the chances of Labour winning / becoming the largest party in a GE

They can't agree on a new PM, or on any policy, other than they don't want No Deal.
The 30 Labour Leavers oppose a PV

AND
if by some miracle there were a PV and Remain won ....
the Tories would likely win the following GE and Invoke again, then leave the day after with No Deal.

The safest way to stop No Deal is to vote for May's WA before a GE
It is a legally binding international treaty with certain minimum terms, such as the NI backstop and stopping a Bonfire of Red Tape / Rights