Westminstenders: The Tory Party Spectacular

[RedToothBrush]

A row over parliamentary language and conduct and how MPs are afraid of extremists has over shadowed talk of Brexit.

Cummings has said if you don't want to leave without a deal, vote for a deal.

Yet there isn't a Johnson approved one in front of the Commons and the EU are utterly despairing of Johnson's blank non papers and his full on Trump bullshit.

Then there's the threats to the rule of law.

Apparently there are five known suggestions to bypass the Benn Act and refuse to ask for an extension.
See Twitter Thread Here

This weekend sees the start of the Tory Party Conference. With a parliamentary vote to block a recess, its rather scuppered plans for the rest of the conference. Johnson's planned speech at the conference clashes with PMQ so he may well not attend the Commons.

Expect the conference to be.... Er... Inflammatory...

DGR

Whack a mole.

UK soldiers are taught very little about legality, especially foot soldiers.

The Corporal killings were horrific, but in 'defence' (used lightly) of the mob, they were obviously on edge/worried for their own lives given what had happened days before. Even as an 8 year old, not in Belfast and relatively shielded from the troubles, I was aware of the tension.

I find it pretty hard to believe that 2 British Army officers just happened to be out for a drive, fully armed, in west Belfast on the day of a highly publicised IRA funeral, new to NI or not. The army claimed they ignored orders to stay away. So that is either a lie from the army or arrogance and stupidity on behalf of the soldiers.

Tragic, regardless.

And unfortunately I can't see us moving past all this Brexit shit without more tragedy.

And back in the gentle world of prepping for a hard Brexit ....
Today I harvested the first of the leeks I sowed in early March
cos "just grow more food" is going to be so easy

With regard to Jean Charles de Menezes , the current Commisioner of the Met Police, Cressida Dick, was in command of the incident room that day.
There was an inquiry after the fatal shooting. She had to justify her actions in the light of the intelligence that she had at her disposal.

I'm just glad that it wasn't me having to make the decisions that she faced on that tragic day.

I agree with you about the Menezes situation. someone has to be culpable.

My understanding of English law, is there is no defence of executive orders to murder. The policemen that fired on JCdM might have done so in a genuine belief they were acting from necessity (which is also no defence to murder). But in that case, who supplied them with the faulty intelligence, and why were they not culpable.

One aspect of policing that is rarely discussed, except in the negative, is that generally in the UK, the police are not special by dint of being police. They are subject to the same laws as us, and where they have to do things that would normally be illegal, it's not because "dey is da police" directly, but because the law and legal system have grown up to provide for situations where it may be necessary to "break the law", and usually it would be a police officer that finds themself in that situation.

If we start a shift towards making the police a separate class of citizen, then we're no longer policing by consent, but by oppression, like any other corrupt regime. And personally I'd rather we exported what little we have left of the notions of decent society, than started importing the mores of shitty misogynistic repressive intolerant countries like Saudi Arabia and their ilk.

He should be on the comedy stage not the world stage.

There is nothing remotely funny about this Basil. Nothing.

flouncy There has been great opposition for trying British soldiers for the murder of British citizens in NI
To date they have got away with those 2 massacres and many others

(Unless they went the expensive route of giving up their citizenship, not just adding on Irish citizenship.
Currently costs 1,000 quid per person, but wasn't cheap or simple even then)

I gather it is only foreign soldiers who are expected to abide by those pesky Geneva conventions.

There are often condemnations of foreign soldiers - except maybe where we sold them weapons - even if they just kill their own people

lack of direct control on the ground

Lovely.

So you're basically saying "woopsies, silly us"?
One way of explaining away the single biggest catalyst for the troubles. Cheers for that.

Never talk to strangers.

The 2 soldiers murdered by the IRA in Belfast were both corporals. One was showing the other, (who had newly arrived), the local area.
It is presumed that they deliberately went to see the IRA funeral out of interest, a mistake which cost them their lives.

There is no excuse for the murders of those 2 corporals

No excuse for the Bloody Sunday or Ballymurphy massacres

As we have been posting about UK politics, wicked actions by one side do not justify wicked actions by the other

.

Agree BCF.

I thought the EU said a few weeks back they wouldn't allow an accidental no deal.
So I've been wondering if there is a scenario where we go past 31st, BJ says we have left, the EU says we haven't and as we aren't prepared then things just continue but we spend several months in discussions about whether or not we have left

I find it pretty hard to believe that 2 British Army officers just happened to be out for a drive, fully armed, in west Belfast on the day of a highly publicised IRA funeral, new to NI or not. The army claimed they ignored orders to stay away. So that is either a lie from the army or arrogance and stupidity on behalf of the soldiers.

Re-reading the wiki it alludes to the story (very detailed as I recall) in PE that they were on duty and tasked with getting the audio to marry up with the video the overhead helicopter was getting. The British Army had cottoned onto the fact that funerals - in particular the funerals they were quite good at setting up - had become a safe space for IRA commanders to openly meet and discuss. Hence they were specialists from the signals corps.

With regard to Jean Charles de Menezes , the current Commisioner of the Met Police, Cressida Dick, was in command of the incident room that day.

Not really, though, was she ? I mean she was getting paid to be and all that, but as soon as there was a problem we suddenly discovered she wasn't "in charge". Certainly not "in charge" enough to be fucking responsible

There was an inquiry after the fatal shooting. She had to justify her actions in the light of the intelligence that she had at her disposal.

Which sounds like justifying an awful lot with fuck all.

This is not a debate anyone will ever win with me. In my version of reality, innocent people don't have their heads removed with a barrage of dumdum fire from serving police officers and "no one's to blame". Anyone who is willing to accept that really has entered the Matrix.

Unless "growing up" is somehow a euphemism for "becoming a moron" ?

"Lack of direct control on the ground"

Yes, exactly that.
Better than a pre-meditated, pre-planned operation to murder British citizens, which is what has been suggested on this forum.

I've read and heard this view expressed a lot here in Germany:

StefanieBolzen@StefanieBolzen (German journalist)

Lastly: EU27 always said another extension needs good reason (GE, 2nd ref).

At same time EU27 prepare their own blame-game.
So why not send PM back on Oct 18 with empty hands & 14 days left until No Deal?

German public at least rejects further concessions.
See chart.

< That poll shows only 15% of Germans support further EU concessions to the UK to avoid No Deal- and Germany has been one of the most conciliatory towards the UK.
Some hardening of attitudes in reaction to BJ's antics, but for many months, German polls have consistently shown over 70% opposed to more concessions >

The 2 soldiers murdered by the IRA in Belfast were both corporals. One was showing the other, (who had newly arrived), the local area.
It is presumed that they deliberately went to see the IRA funeral out of interest, a mistake which cost them their lives.

Gibraltar murders

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flavius

Murders during the burial of the Gibraltar 3

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milltown_Cemetery_attack

Murders during the burial of those murdered during the burial.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporals_killings

These events were not in isolation.

My DF commented about the TV coverage of the corporals killings that it was like when they caught Mussolini. DF wasn't a partisan (although aged 13 he could have been ...) but there were partisans from his village who returned after the war ... possibly a lot of tall tales, but who knows ?

All of which puts a terrible perspective on where we are ... certain things are still well within living memory. As my recollection of the corporals killings (and later execution of the Ceaușescus) shows.

I wasn't trying to defend the corporal killings (although I will concede I used the word defence). They were absolutely horrific. I was merely pointing out that the crowd were on edge and so the reaction was somewhat understandable.

The procession was being stewarded by armed IRA members. The army and RUC knew they were not welcome. To even go to view the proceedings 'out of interest' shows only that they were incredibly foolish and ill-informed at best and so I take the claim that they weren't ordered to go there with a pinch of salt. It would hardly look well on their superiors if they were killed as a result of a direct order. I might be wrong, but it wouldn't be the first time the British army lied about their involvement in incidents in NI.

"the EU said a few weeks back they wouldn't allow an accidental no deal"

I haven't read that anywhere

What I keep reading is that there would have to be a GE or PV - not just a "promise" of one
and that the Uk govt would have to ask for one.

For those E27 countries who are fed up with repeatedly extending, for the UK to then waste all the time by internal squabbling,
any forced, insincere request for an extension, or a request by anyone except the appointed PM,
is an excellent ground for refusing.

Gibraltar murders

I'm not an anarchist, and I am "happy" (odd word to use) that there may be times it is unavoidable that lethal force may be needed to protect innocent civilians. And in those cases, I am 100% behind our police, security services and those tasked with keeping us safe. They are daily heroes and are doing jobs I know I could never do.

(I have a very personal stake in that, and there was a police operation which ended in 4 armed robbers dead in Harrow in the 80s that was a textbook example).

Furthermore, in light of it being such a dangerous and difficult job, I am willing to allow more leeway that I would if it happened to be an ordinary Joe involved whose job is not to protect the public.

So given all that, nothing is guaranteed to make me reverse my opinion when the police et al start lying and obfuscating and generally making themselves appear guilty. Which sadly seems a default goto now, in most instances.

DGR
I'm not trying to win a debate with you.
Its a pointless exercise so long after the events, and we all have our points of reference.
I was an Army officer in NI, I also was a firearms commander in the Police.
That does give me a certain insight into how these things can happen .... but I fully accept that bystanders like to add their POV.

Better than a pre-meditated, pre-planned operation to murder British citizens, which is what has been suggested on this forum

Yep. Free Derry was just full of 'British citizens'.

twitter.com/i/status/1178285612773920768

A clip of the Manchester protest